This is a discussion on When does assault evolve into a life-threatening beating? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Pinger I'd pull my firearm, yell at the assailant to stop that I had a gun and that I was calling the ...
if the wife is with me, he's getting tazed, if she's not, he will probally end up with lead poisioning
The "Alter Ego" rule is in place in SC and probably in a lot of other states. If such a scenario comes into play, I can assume that the old man is me and act accordingly. If it was me and I was being pummeled to the point of a presumption of imminent danger of possibly dying or receiving grievous injury and I was CC, I would shoot to kill. Easy if it really is you and that is the real problem---how can I truly know for sure that the old man is in that kind of trouble that I am ready to kill someone? All I can say is that I hope and pray I never find myself in that situation and hope and pray that I can make the right decision. I do believe that if the old guy is defenseless, and being beaten to a pulp and it is only me and no one else to assist, I would announce myself at the scene, indicate for the perp to stop, tell him I have a firearm, and tell him if he does not stop immediately, I will kill him and then do so.
OK--honest question here: for those of you who carry OC--what is the effective range of your OC dispenser? I can surely see OC for an encounter that has suddenly, unexpectedly gotten up close and personal, but in this particular scenario, there is likely some distance between you and the life & death struggle occuring between the young perp and the old guy victim. Does engaging with OC require me to get within 21 feet of the demonstrably violent BG?
In other words, if I have to get within 21' of him to spray him and the OC does NOT have the desired/intended effect--will I become his next "old guy" victim??
Scott, US Army 1974-2004
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan
From what I've seen, the suggested ranges run from 10 to 20 feet depending on whether fog or stream. One of the reasons I lean toward a "cheap shot", in this situation.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
But what effect would OC have on the victim in this case? Does OC only affect someone who is conscious? Has anyone (LEA, OC manufacturers, FDA, etc.) ever done a study on this? In this scenario, it isn't a big stretch to see that the victim could unintentionally get a good dose of OC. I'd hate to think that my best intentions could do more harm than good for the victim.
I like to be within 10-15 ft. for using a stream type OC/CS dispenser. I would take my chances with the victim being contaminated with the chemical agent as opposed to him being beaten to death. In regards to telling someone you are going to shoot and kill them I think I would leave out the word kill and tell them you do not want to shoot them but you will if they do not stop their assault if it has come to that. To the firing of a "warning shot" that is a bad idea. In regards to the cheap shot I refer to them as a physical control tactic of opportunity. My $.02.
"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".
"A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".
Stream patterns go slightly further but are difficult for people that are not trained and who train often to use effectively.
You ask about getting within the 21 foot range, yes you will need to be within that to be effective with OC but you should be within that range on a self defense shooting also just do to the possibilities of a miss and being responsible for all shots. Some people train out to further distances but in reality, most self defense shooting are within the 21 foot range.
As I said earlier, think about OC on the off hand and that leaves your strong hand open for what ever steps may be necessary if the OC does not have the desired affect.
Just like a firearm, OC is not a magic talisman that will ward off evil merely by owning it. You need to have a plan on deployment and practice that plan as often (or in reality more often) as you train to shoot.
In other words, practice to NOT be the next "old guy" victim.
In the above scenario the victim was on the ground and the attackers around him standing most likely so deploying OC, even a cone pattern will cover the victim minimally and the majority will go on the attackers.
Remember, OC not only makes it difficult to impossible for the attackers to continue their attack, it also has the ability to help keep them from effectively escalating further levels of force. It's hard to hit a target when you can see. They may pull a knife or firearm but without the ability to see clearly and with the added stress of the effects they will be minimally effective at an attack on you.
It gives you time to increase the separation distance and gives you time to evaluate your next move.
I am disabled and physically can't go H2H,I will draw and order suspect to stop the attack and prone out,if he continues the attack then under Tx law I will do what is necessary to stop the threat up to and including deadly force
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
I think a heavy metal gun butt brought down on teh back of his head might calm him down. If not and he turns the fight on me....well we all know what happens then.
Although it may be possible to justify deadly force in some jurisdictions in the original scenario it could be iffy in others. It is inconceivable to me that someone would carry a firearm but no intermediate weapon. It is much easier to justify spraying pepper than lead when you are not yourself in danger of harm from the unarmed attack. The OC would resolve the problem 95% of the time.
What really amazes me is some are concerned with cross contamination of spraying pepper in close proximity to others but not concerned with cross contamination by unleashing lead.
MCL 600.2922b, MCL 600.2922c, &
The Self-Defense Act
Effective October 1, 2006
Public Acts 309 – 314 of 2006 comprise the “Self-Defense Act.” The Act affects criminal and civil liability for those who use force to defend themselves or others. Prior to this Act, the law of self-defense was gleaned primarily from the common law (judge-made law).
General Provisions of the Act
A person may use deadly force with no duty to retreat if (PA 309):
1. They are not engaged in a crime
2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
3. They honestly and reasonably believe deadly force is necessary4. The deadly force is used to prevent imminent death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault of the person or another
A person may use force other than deadly force if (PA 309):
1. They are not engaged in a crime
2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
3. They honestly and reasonably believe force is necessary
4. The force is used to prevent imminent unlawful force against the person or another
I would rather die with good men than hide with cowards
If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans
Don't ever think that the reason I'm peaceful is because I don't know how to be violent
M&Pc .357SIG, 2340Sigpro .357SIG
I've tested the ASP Defender I carry, and I estimate the best range is 6 feet or less. In the scenario as described by the OP, my plan would be to come up behind the BG and point the business end toward his eyes at point-blank range and let him have it. Hose him down in the face real good. Then step back and see how it goes.OK--honest question here: for those of you who carry OC--what is the effective range of your OC dispenser?
There are plenty of H2H options I have available from this stage, including using the kubotan-like Defender canister as a striking tool in and of itself. Let alone combatives.
There is nothing in the scenario as presented that warrants a shooting, far as I'm concerned.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
Yet evidence shows that in many real life adrenaline charged shootouts, people have stood 4 feet apart or less, both shooters empty their guns and neither one ever hits the other person.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."