When does assault evolve into a life-threatening beating?

This is a discussion on When does assault evolve into a life-threatening beating? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; After reading about the AZ blindside assault of an older man by a young athletic man , this scenario occurred to me: You are a ...

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Thread: When does assault evolve into a life-threatening beating?

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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    When does assault evolve into a life-threatening beating?

    After reading about the AZ blindside assault of an older man by a young athletic man, this scenario occurred to me:

    You are a licensed handgun carrier with a loaded handgun in a legal area to carry. You witness from the beginning an assault. An older man is attacked blindly by a much younger, stronger man. The assailant has an immediate advantage after knocking the older man to the concrete. The older man is unable to defend himself, possibly already unconscious. The assailant continues to attack. At this point, you could think that the victim will be killed in very short time.

    You are aware that others are already trying to call 911, etc. Nobody is attempting to directly stop the assault.

    About you:
    1) You are a young, strong man who could possibly match the assailant in a fist fight. Do you engage physically or does your firearm come into play?

    2) You are an older healthy man who would probably have a disadvantage physically against the younger, strong and obviously violent assailant. Do you engage physically or does your firearm come into play?

    3) You are physically impaired: natural causes (age), visible injury (broken leg in a cast, on crutches, in wheelchair, etc.) or invisible problem (heart disease, cancer, recent surgery, etc.) You may look fit but you KNOW that you cannot physically engage the assailant to stop the assault. Does your firearm come into play?

    What do you do, knowing that seconds DO count?

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    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    If I am armed I am not getting in a physical altercation even if I have the advantage. If the older mans life appears to be in danger I will intervene. If verbal commands are ignored then I will do what must be done.

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    I agree with not joining into the physical fight. I also feel that instead of having the assailant escorted from the establishment the police should have been called and a formal complaint made, then the police could have escorted the individual out, and there would have been an official record of his conduct, his identification and address. Then should something like this take place they would know who they were looking for. Now for the scenario, I am getting older and have asthma pretty bad, any real physical exertion gets me pretty winded and would take me out of a fight in short order. I would verbally advise the assailant to cease and desist, I would also advise him that I am in fear of the victim being killed if the attack continues, and I will act on that fear should he not stop. If he did not stop, or if he took a couple steps towards me, I would shoot him.
    Last edited by Hiram25; April 18th, 2011 at 02:16 PM. Reason: OP might not have seen my response?
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    Hiram25
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Falling into catagory #2, take whatever "cheap shot" I determine is most appropriate and effective at the time.
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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    If I am armed I am not getting in a physical altercation even if I have the advantage. If the older mans life appears to be in danger I will intervene. If verbal commands are ignored then I will do what must be done.
    But HOW would you intervene? I think most of use would LIKE to do something but I'd like to define WHAT each would choose to do and WHY.

    For all responders: Please focus your answer on the scenario I proposed rather than what you think should have been done at that nightclub scenario.

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    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    I would intervine by telling him I was armed and that if he continued the assault I would end it.
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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    You seem to have only two courses of action, either go hands on or firearm, maybe it's time to look at another option that gives you an additional step in the escalation of force.

    The addition of OC spray is one that gives you the ability to address the in between levels of force that most encounters fall in. Deadly force is a very last resort when you "know" in your mind that without it death or serious bodily harm will occur.

    As to what I'd do? OC in the off hand and be ready to react to what ever additional force may be necessary to eliminate the threat.
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    NC Bullseye is about 20 minutes ahead of me in his post.

    Without going hands on... a less lethal form of intervention like OC spray would be a good option. It can at least interrupt the aggressors actions enough to present even more options. Always remain alert to the fact that your OC spray may not have the desired effect and be prepared for him going after you.
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  10. #9
    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Granted, OC could be a very valid option. Too bad you don't have any with you. No time to go shopping for it either. Now what do you do???

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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    Granted, OC could be a very valid option. Too bad you don't have any with you. No time to go shopping for it either. Now what do you do???
    I'd use the bazooka on my back since it's now obviously a dream. If I'm awake I do my best to be prepared. This is no different that if I'm driving, I have a spare and wearing a seat belt.

    I prepare for the most likely of the unlikely, not for everything. I'm not batman with a utility belt. (usually) If the threat is greater than what I've got in hand I try to lessen the threat in any way possible. If I can not get away and the threat becomes a deadly threat then I use deadly force. That is what I train for.

    If the threat is not life threatening or doesn't pose a possibility of serious bodily harm then I am also prepared to take a tune up. With that said, the instant I feel that the tune up is transitioning into a deadly threat I will adjust accordingly.

    Before you change the scenario again, I'll say that it's 100% personal decision for everyone as to when the force level has reached the tipping point to the point of justifying deadly force. There is no manual on earth that can give you the exact indicators that will dictate the change in levels of force and the response required for each individual, it's a very personal thing.
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    Member Array Rivers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    Before you change the scenario again...
    I didn't change the scenario. You introduced something (OC) that I didn't include in my original scenario. So, to level the playing field, please only include OC as a possible option if you ALWAYS carry OC whenever you carry your handgun. I say ALWAYS because we all know that trouble happens without warning. You gear up how you would normally gear up.

    We will assume that wherever you can carry your gun is legal for you to also carry OC.

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    I run into the phone booth........You know the rest of the story.....
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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivers View Post
    Granted, OC could be a very valid option. Too bad you don't have any with you. No time to go shopping for it either. Now what do you do???
    I always have OC with me ! If you carry lethal force you should always have a non-lethal force option with you in case you need to as in your scenario escalate force .

    http://www.defensedevices.com/asp-street-defender.html
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    o heck guys just tell him to stop. then shoot him .
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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Like Old School, I always have my ASP Defender on my key chain, so...

    Granted, OC could be a very valid option. Too bad you don't have any with you.
    If I've got my keys, I'm carrying OC. It's much easier to deal with the aftermath of macing somebody as opposed to shooting them. Also, it isn't specified whether there are other bystanders about. It's much better for a group of 3 or 4 to render non-lethal aid. Somehow, and maybe I'm off-base here, but this thread strikes me as being one of those where the OP is in the "OK - can I shoot now? Can I shoot now?" mode.

    Seems to me that if you have a gun, you're allowed to shoot it all you want. And then you'll have to explain to a court why you did so and hope that your actions are deemed "reasonable."
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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