April 22nd, 2011 02:27 PM
Yikes! OP, please read your state laws.
"Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".
April 22nd, 2011 03:28 PM
I'll be gentle. The original dost displays not only a lack of training but also common sense.
April 22nd, 2011 03:56 PM
You want the latitude of a cop, no problem, become a cop. Otherwise, the ice surrounding SD is often thin, tread lightly.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
April 22nd, 2011 04:12 PM
I think most of these guys have it right; DO NOT ESCALATE. But, there is a way to handle that. The first way, is training. I have only had the training that a SC CWP class entails. But, I know that while not 'over reacting' I can tell the person in question to stay back. If they persist, I can/will take steps back, away from them. If I feel that they are continuing to persist, I will be looking for cover, and ready to meet THEIR escalated force.
So, the moral here; be READY to draw your weapon to defend yourself, not EAGER.
"Rock and load, lock and roll... what's it matter? FIRE!!"
"Gun control means hitting your target every time."
Please take everything I say with at least one
grain of salt- I am a very
sarcastic person with a very
dry sense of humor.
April 22nd, 2011 04:19 PM
Seems like you can't pull your gun until it's to late. If a creepy guy has you stopped in a dark alley and starts pulling up his shirt reaching for something, the first thing you should do is take out your camera phone because you need proof he had a gun and was acting in a threatening manner. Then if you have time you can draw your firearm and defend yourself.
April 22nd, 2011 04:21 PM
BINGO....We have a winner!!
Originally Posted by Guantes
My impression exactly from reading the OP. He needs to appy for and become a cop. Otherwise there is much training/studying of state law needed before he chooses to carry. JMO
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
April 22nd, 2011 04:26 PM
I'm not slighting the OP but most of the LEO's that I know didn't become an LEO because the wanted latitude or power. It only takes one to soil the perception by the masses.
I doubt that an LEO would "Draw to Ready" quite as rapidly as the post indicated. JMHO
Train like your life depends on it, because it does.
NRA Life Member
April 22nd, 2011 04:33 PM
Good! You absolutely grasp the reality of the situation. The citizen defender is almost always in a bad strategic spot because you cannot draw unless you are in demonstrable fear for your life.
Seems like you can't pull your gun until it's to late.
To the OP: Dude - you have zero authority to bark orders at another citizen. He or she has equal right to yell "shut your pie hole" at you and flip you off for good measure.
If we can get philosophical about this for a sec, the whole point of living in civilized society is that we try to avoid drawing weapons and threatening one another with death. Traditionally, that sort of thing leads to poor outcomes. Realistically, if you're on a witness stand giving testimony in court, whatever you say about why you did what you did had better well be something that has all 12 jurors nodding their heads and thinking, "well, of course, that was entirely reasonable and I would have done the exact same thing."
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
April 22nd, 2011 04:59 PM
Be very, very careful my friend!!! I see trouble with a lot of your tactics...
April 22nd, 2011 05:10 PM
Generally speaking, I agree with you. It is difficult to quantify with so many variables, experience, training, area (hi-crime, lo-crime, hi- officer assaults, lo-officer assaults), alone-with a partner, etc.
Originally Posted by tomtsr
I would not hesitate to draw if I felt it necessary, but I tried to make that the exception, rather than the rule. How I did that was to become as fast and proficient as I could. I felt that this gave me a greater latitude and time frame in which to operate.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
April 22nd, 2011 05:29 PM
Your understanding of self defense laws - that you have to wait so long before acting so as to be behind the eight ball - is as dangerous as those who want extreme latitude to defend themselves.
Originally Posted by KimberUltra
Quite frankly, I really don't want to sound rude, but the level of misinformed people in this thread is rather frightening.
You people are carrying guns!
You have lost the right to be uninformed, just as you have lost the right to flip people the bird in traffic or be intoxicated in public while armed.
If you have not taken professional training, do so. Immediately. If you cannot afford it, you cannot afford not to buy the following books:
Amazon.com: The Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry (9780896896116): Massad Ayoob: Books
Amazon.com: The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery (9780896895256): Massad Ayoob: Books
Amazon.com: In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection (9780936279008): Massad F. Ayoob: Books
And read them till they fall to pieces.
Training is less expensive that hospital bills and legal fees.
Oh, and for Connecticut people: Specter Tactical: Home and Welcome to Defense Associates run classes regularly.
I have trained with both, they are both top notch.
The excuse to be walking around with a firearm not knowing stone cold when the use of a firearm is and is not appropriate is zero.
If that sounds uncompromising, arrogant or elitist, I do not care.
When you take on the responsibility of being armed, you take on other responsibilities as well.
Don't like it?
Leave the gun at home.
April 22nd, 2011 07:01 PM
Thanks for the comments. It seems like everyone focused on the 'it's OK to draw' scenario and not on the part about mindset, creating distance and time and other aspects. Saying that it's "OK" to draw in a bad situation where the panhandler/aggressive person is advancing on you does not mean you should, only that you are now in a dangerous situation where someone with a gun in their pocket can shoot you. I read over a very large number of posts, some addressing this very question of someone putting their hands in pockets and prior to that being menacing. I'm NOT talking about someone offering to give you a jump. I'm talking about being in condition green too long, afraid to be rude and tell someone forcefully to back off.
Not every presentation of a HG is deemed brandishing, and VERY few if any of the situations presented on the forum involve someone calling the cops after menacing someone who drew on them. In the vast majority, the BG just ran away. In fact I'd be in favor of having the HG in your pocket where it can't be seen or identified but ready to fire. It gives you time.
I am not advocating shooting someone, far from it. I'm talking about being a little more suspicious, pre-emption and trying to take advantage of the mindset of 'what's a dangerous situation' by using the methods that LEOs use to assess situations. Once you see a situation is defused or harmless it's easy to apologize.
So take this post for what it's worth, not as a license to be a LEO or act like that, but a method of scenario awareness, allowing you to act and stay ahead of the ball.
April 22nd, 2011 07:36 PM
Badger, you are ALWAYS in a dangerous situation where a person with a gun - in their pocket or otherwise - can shoot you. Just because there's a panhandler in the vicinity is NOT a reason that you could articulate in court that put you in reasonable fear of imminent death or grave bodily injury. Being scared, "creeped out," annoyed, or otherwise inconvenienced is NOT a legal green light to draw a deadly weapon, period.
Last night, as an example, I was standing outside of a pizza place in a bar/restaurant/nightlife area of town. It was about midnight, and I was with a few friends. We were waiting for the valet to bring around my friend's car, and I was munching my last slice of pizza. A homeless guy was across the street, heading in our general direction. I was armed. He saw us and started coming directly towards me, at a brisk walk. I kept my eyes on him, bladed, and watched. He came straight at me, looking directly at me! I was armed! What should I have done?
Here's what I did: when he asked "Are you gonna finish that?" I said "No, here you go," and gave him my last half-slice...
I AM a cop, and saw no reason to draw, prepare to draw, run to cover, or anything else just because a stranger happened to exist on the same street as I did. I watched, took all the cues I could from his demeanor, appearance, body language, and so on, added in the environmental factors, and decided the guy was hungry. I was right, no one got shot, no one got yelled at, and the only one who lost out was my dog, who lost half a slice of pizza. :)
I think I know where you're coming from, and to a large extent I agree - be aware of your surroundings, pay particular attention to things that seem out of the ordinary, and prepare to react appropriately to the actions of others. Someone putting their hand in their pocket, even if they happen to be the dreaded "pan handler," is not in and of itself unusual or reason to draw down on someone. If, and ONLY if, you can articulate to 12 people who weren't there why you were in REASONABLE fear of imminent death are you going to come out of any shooting "ok," and I use the term "ok" very loosely, even under the best circumstances.
Get some legal and tactical training. Pay attention to the world around you. Then go grab a slice of pizza.
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
April 23rd, 2011 07:07 AM
Where's MadMac? He'd have fun with this one.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
April 23rd, 2011 10:32 AM
OK, I can take the heat, but let me rephrase this.
In a tactical situation, my thought is to try and find a way to stay ahead of the game, be somewhat pre-emptive, to get the drop on the aggressor (emphasis on aggressor).
I do NOT advocate drawing on an unarmed aggressor. Have OC spray an non-lethal options and work, if possible with a partner (wife, gf, bf, adult son/daughter who also carries).
Think about how you can be pre-emptive - a HG in the pocket finger off the trigger is preferable to low-ready draw for a LOT of reasons. It's one way CC is better than OC - you can be ready to go without broadcasting it.
Ask yourself also, what if your wife or gf were in this situation with an aggressive panhandler or derelict approaching and failing to back off and not having much in the way of an escape route. Would you advocate any pre-emptive moves, commands or actions? If she came home and said 'some guy was coming up on me looking scary and when I partially accessed my HG he ran away', would you not be happy?
I am well aware of the cost of using the flashy end of the HG. I'm also aware of reality - I'm no longer a kid, I have a disability, park in a H/C spot and I'm a target. I will NOT let some BG get the drop on me even if it takes risking some minor thing or even putting my word against a BG. I intend to figure out ways to stay a step ahead and to sleep at home each night.
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