Answer to so many DC questions?

This is a discussion on Answer to so many DC questions? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've read through almost the entire forum - lots of good threads. One thing that occurred to me is this. When you are confronted by ...

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Thread: Answer to so many DC questions?

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    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    Answer to so many DC questions?

    I've read through almost the entire forum - lots of good threads.

    One thing that occurred to me is this. When you are confronted by a perp, why not do what a LEO would do in that situation? After all, they are trained in 'preemption' drawing down on you if there's a hint of a problem.

    Now, arguably, they come up on a traffic stop and they are not subject to brandishing, and are performing a legal detention, but we should try to learn by their example since their actions are often well thought-out and planned in advance through countless examples. They know when to put their hand on the gun, when to draw at low ready, how to give voice commands, how to best prone out the perp.

    So, while I'm not saying 'act like a cop', you can keep that picture in your mind.

    For example, a street person approaches you, and after being turned down puts his hands in his pockets. Why not have already said - "I don't have any cash, back off and do NOT put your hands in your pockets or make any hasty movements".

    If he does put hands in pockets, having ordered him not to, it's then OK to draw your HG into low ready. After all, he could almost have the drop on you, willing to shoot through his pocket.

    At the same time you should not be standing still but seeking cover. Let's be honest, often we don't go into defensive mode because we don't want to be embarrassed by over reacting. If you are having a confrontation do not underestimate it. This is what I mean by acting like a LEO would act (within reason). Be rude - be forceful, seek cover and prepare to act. If it turns out to be a girl scout selling cookies you can always apologize.

    One thing to be aware of, and that's 'saying too much'. If you start talking to the bad guy (BG), it gives him a handle to start something. Just keep walking but keep your eyes on him and don't get into a conversation if the person looks like a panhandler or derelict. You're creating distance and you're gaining time.

    That's a key - gain space - time and distance. It gives you more time to react. If you can palm your HG in your pocket you are already drawn down on the BG without giving anything away. It gives you a LOT more options and time to decide to pull the trigger if you already have a HG in your sweater pocket and the BG can't see it, see the type or assess the threat. If you create confusion in the BG ("is this guy armed, maybe I should leave and find an easier target?")

    We know they fear us more than the cops (we're a tad unpredictable).

    While you are creating space it's also a good idea to be accessing your weak side non-lethal options. Combat flashlight, OC spray. (test these in action, btw).

    It takes time to deploy and we should be getting ready during every second we can afford. Cell phone out, or non-lethal, giving directions to your partner if you're with them, getting behind a barrier or car and generally improving your tactical position (get the Sun in their eyes, for example).

    Hope this is of interest.

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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    For example, a street person approaches you, and after being turned down puts his hands in his pockets. Why not have already said - "I don't have any cash, back off and do NOT put your hands in your pockets or make any hasty movements".

    If he does put hands in pockets, having ordered him not to, it's then OK to draw your HG into low ready. After all, he could almost have the drop on you, willing to shoot through his pocket.
    Sounds like a good way to catch a brandishing or menacing beef.

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    New Member Array Chada's Avatar
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    "If he does put hands in pockets, having ordered him not to, it's then OK to draw your HG into low ready. "

    I do not believe that is the case in my state. You do not have the right to order him to do anything. And when he does put his hands in his pockets and you draw your weapon, depending on whether he feels threatened by that in my state, it would be brandishing in my opinion.

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    I would not order anyone to do anything else other than to get away from me. I'm not a cop and I cannot order anyone to keep his hands out of his pockets...if you want to put your hands in your pockets while your BACKING away from me, go for it.
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    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    Its going to be tough to say all this,

    "I don't have any cash, back off and do NOT put your hands in your pockets or make any hasty movements".

    while doing this,

    "One thing to be aware of, and that's 'saying too much'. If you start talking to the bad guy (BG), it gives him a handle to start something. Just keep walking but keep your eyes on him and don't get into a conversation if the person looks like a panhandler or derelict. You're creating distance and you're gaining time."

    I think you have some decent ideas but if you tell a guy not put his hands in his pockets and he does and you draw sorry my friend your going to jail and what if its another CC'er with the same mindset as you, then you two will be shooting it out with eachother and the media would have a field day making all of us look bad because two guys prematurily draw.

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    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    In many states, drawing a firearm in this kind of situation will constitute brandishing at the very least, attempted assault with a deadly weapon at the worst. Back off and gain some space, use SA and go from there. IANAL but even in places with strong Castle Doctrine that is a recipe for disaster IMO.
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    A "voice command" can also potentially escalate a situation. When doing maritime law enforcement, I used it judiciously. People don't like being told what to do, and I found that a kind word usually gained more cooperation (I also found this approach useful in a later part-time job as a bouncer).

    As a civilian, I will likely only offer a voice command as I'm about to present some form of physical force, and possibly not even then.

    When reviewing responses on forums such as this, I'm careful to weigh the response of a LEO in the context of the capacity of their role and authority, vs. what I have as a private citizen.
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    Member Array tomtsr's Avatar
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    First off, welcome to the forum.

    Your post raises a couple of points that should be taken into consideration when thinking about how one should react to a situation.

    A civilian does not have the authority to order someone not to put their hands in their pockets. While you do have the authority to tell someone to back away from you, your authority is extremely limited.

    An LEO differs in a couple of ways. First they are duly sworn and with that comes a certain authority that is above the civilian. Second, LEO's go to the threat while we should retreat. We have no authority to stop a vehicle for suspicious activity or breaking the law, or someone in a place that has drug history. They do.

    I am sure the laws vary from state to state, but few if any would not consider the action of drawing your weapon brandishing and the crime is yours. There have been posts in forums, and my local sheriff states that even the act of placing your hand on your gun in some instances could be considered brandishing. Heck, even some places consider printing brandishing.

    The response and actions of the good guy must be coinciding with the threat. That being said, we cannot react with greater force than the threat. At this juncture, the threat is not life threatening or even physically harmful. Not saying it couldn't get there, it just isn't yet.

    I will take a statement made in the OP: "Let's be honest, often we don't go into defensive mode because we don't want to be embarrassed by over reacting." IMHO to draw a weapon without a clear threat is over reacting and the embarrassment will come when you have a room reserved at the cross bar motel and all the financial ramifications that come with it.
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    Member Array Keisukekun's Avatar
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    Yeh this would be going to far. Most states say that you cannot draw or use your weapon unless you believe you or other are in mortal danger.. Cops do what they do cause they have the authority and trying to emulate them even slightly would look bad in court even if you end up shooting someone in a justifiable way. The best thing would be to have some type of non lethal you can get in your hand and have ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    One thing that occurred to me is this. When you are confronted by a perp, why not do what a LEO would do in that situation? After all, they are trained in 'preemption' drawing down on you if there's a hint of a problem.
    Because you are not a LEO. You do not have the powers of detainment and arrest that a LEO does. You do not have the legal protection that a LEO does.

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    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    OP, it's this simple. You are not a cop and if you choose to take the actions you write of, you are going to get yourself in a lot of hot water when you escalate a situation like that. A carry permit does not make you a cop, vigilante or superhero.
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    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Law enforcement is trained to take control of a situation and are authorized to escalate the level of force to be the controlling entity.

    Civilians are not authorized nor trained on the escalation of force. Civilians are allowed to meet force with like force. For a civilian to meet non deadly force with deadly force is considered being the instigator.

    Sometimes the lines are very thin but this is the reasoning in a nutshell.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    I've read through almost the entire forum - lots of good threads.

    One thing that occurred to me is this. When you are confronted by a perp, why not do what a LEO would do in that situation? After all, they are trained in 'preemption' drawing down on you if there's a hint of a problem.

    Now, arguably, they come up on a traffic stop and they are not subject to brandishing, and are performing a legal detention, but we should try to learn by their example since their actions are often well thought-out and planned in advance through countless examples. They know when to put their hand on the gun, when to draw at low ready, how to give voice commands, how to best prone out the perp.

    So, while I'm not saying 'act like a cop', you can keep that picture in your mind.

    For example, a street person approaches you, and after being turned down puts his hands in his pockets. Why not have already said - "I don't have any cash, back off and do NOT put your hands in your pockets or make any hasty movements".

    If he does put hands in pockets, having ordered him not to, it's then OK to draw your HG into low ready. After all, he could almost have the drop on you, willing to shoot through his pocket.

    At the same time you should not be standing still but seeking cover. Let's be honest, often we don't go into defensive mode because we don't want to be embarrassed by over reacting. If you are having a confrontation do not underestimate it. This is what I mean by acting like a LEO would act (within reason). Be rude - be forceful, seek cover and prepare to act. If it turns out to be a girl scout selling cookies you can always apologize.

    One thing to be aware of, and that's 'saying too much'. If you start talking to the bad guy (BG), it gives him a handle to start something. Just keep walking but keep your eyes on him and don't get into a conversation if the person looks like a panhandler or derelict. You're creating distance and you're gaining time.

    That's a key - gain space - time and distance. It gives you more time to react. If you can palm your HG in your pocket you are already drawn down on the BG without giving anything away. It gives you a LOT more options and time to decide to pull the trigger if you already have a HG in your sweater pocket and the BG can't see it, see the type or assess the threat. If you create confusion in the BG ("is this guy armed, maybe I should leave and find an easier target?")

    We know they fear us more than the cops (we're a tad unpredictable).

    While you are creating space it's also a good idea to be accessing your weak side non-lethal options. Combat flashlight, OC spray. (test these in action, btw).

    It takes time to deploy and we should be getting ready during every second we can afford. Cell phone out, or non-lethal, giving directions to your partner if you're with them, getting behind a barrier or car and generally improving your tactical position (get the Sun in their eyes, for example).

    Hope this is of interest.
    Before addressing your questions, how much training have you had?

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    Badger, while your post is well intentioned the actions you suggest taking will land you in jail in my state. Especially if I my truck broke down at the gas station and I walk over to ask for a jump and you order me to get away and get my hands out of my pockets then you draw your gun. Now my impression is I just wanted to ask this guy for a jump, I have cables in my truck and he starts spouting off "I have no money, Get away from me, get your hands out of your pockets." and then pulls a gun on me. Now I am in fear for my life and I draw and we both get shot. All the witnesses are going to say that I approached him to ask about a jump and he pulled out a gun and shot me and I shot back. Now you are going to jail with a gunshot wound all because you wanted to do is tell someone what to do and draw your gun to make them do it. I hope you are smart enough to know the difference between someone asking for a handout and someone who needs a jump. I am currently preparing to enter the world of law enforcement here within the year as a full time officer and I will tell you right now if you pulled that on me while I was off duty and needed a jump, I'd arrest you on the spot for brandishing a weapon and intimidation.
    RevolvingMag likes this.
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