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Woman being beaten in restaurant...what would you do? (Merged)

14K views 142 replies 68 participants last post by  Sharpender 
#1 ·
#68 ·
I can justify it by the fact that someone is getting attacked to the point of serious bodily injury or beyond, apparently without the ability to defend themselves. I have enough. If you need more, do as you see fit.
 
#69 ·
I think this one's easy. I usually don't have OC on me, I do carry a collapsible baton, but I don't think you need it. Those girls were not paying any attention to anyone else. Just walk straight up and bam right hook to the temple of 1 girl while she is looking the wrong way. I would 100% not present my weapon as that would be a severe escalation of force.
I highly doubt the other two girls are going to do anything given they have one friend totally knocked out already.
This actually happened to me in college, I was in the Kitchen at a party and three girls started just beating on another girl. Didn't get this bad though since I just picked up a pan and hit one of the girls in the head with it. Not hard enough to really do much other than make her REALLY pay attention.
I didn't even carry at the time but you don't need OC or a baton or even your EDC. It's a Mcdonalds. Grab a chair, pick it up, hit one of the girls with it. Fights over.
That was a bad video, I would have done something. I don't care if its a transgendered whatever, it's a human being getting absolutely railed on.
 
#73 ·
I'll take the unpopular position:

I do not get into other people's fights.

I would call the police.
I would let them know "Hey, the pigs are on the way!"; but...Absent extreme circumstances, I do not get involved in other people's fights.

Maybe I'm cold & heartless...well. So be it.

But it would have to be a very extreme situation for me to get involved in a fight between people I didn't know.

Is this one of those situations? Duno. Haven't watched the video, and really don't care to.

Even granting that this is a bad beating - Do you know who is involved and what it's about when you are seeing it in person?

You are judged by what you knew at the time, and in defending a third party, you stand in the place of the person being defended when you act - are you prepared to risk your money, freedom or life for a person who may have provoked the fight?

If you are all ready to jump into other people's piles of poo - more power to you.

But I don't get into other people's fights as a general rule.
 
#80 ·
Seeing someone walking up to a woman loading groceries into an SUV at my local Stop & Shop with her kids with her and trying to take one of the kids or smashing her about the head with a brick/random heavy object.

Something simple like that. I have a relatively good idea of what she's doing at the moment, and i have a relatively good idea of what the guy attacking her would be doing.

A fight between people in a fast food place over something I'm not informed of?

I'll call 911 for you.
 
#82 ·
I got smoking mad when I saw this video.

I care less that the victim is transgendered, gay, straight, purple, black, white, etc.

She is non-thug.


I notice the semi-manless MCD manager, through his physical presence, stops/slows the attack a few times.

I have never hit a woman in my life.

I agree with a heavy B****Slap, grab hair/body and throw them back/to the ground, OC, taser, if you carry those, as the primary go-to tactics.

Perps were totally unaware during the beatdown. There are quite a few very heavy handed options

In the video, there were no boyfriend thugs there to escalate/defend the perps in the moment.

Putting the transgendered woman/man in the corner, getting in front of her physically stops the attack and defends victim. Call 911, leave line open and talk when I can.

The perp girls step in again, same thing....slap, etc. If I go in hard the first time, it likely stops there...intending a Big Fat OODA loop reset.

The video shows transgendered on ground, multiple attackers, unable to defend herself, undergoing beatdown. In Texas, the law clearly allows the use of force in this case to defend a third party and -Potentially- lethal force.

As far as the use of lethal force to neutralize the perps, I must reasonably believe, right or wrong, that transgendered life was in immediate danger in that beatdown to shoot girl perps into the ground to neutralize them as a threat. It was an immediate need in the moment and I was reasonable to believe so.

I think this one is a real grey area for me to justify and legally too grey for me.

Here is my issue: On the video, the perps stop when the lame-a** manager comes over seemingly half heartedly and gets in the way. He does nothing beyond words and just getting in the way. I think a jury sees that and says that that level or somewhat higher (slap, palm to the face, throw down...ie aggressive but non lethal.....) was just fine to defend and all that was necessary and when I went to gun and shot into the ground - an excessive use of force.

Now, headstomping, face/head/neck kicking: Extremely dangerous and very high risk of immediate lethal/grave harm. They do this from the beginning.

Its not until the very end that some kick by the one of the girl perps before walking out the door -in what appears to be to the head- causes the seizures. (yes the other hits to the head were cumulative)

At that seizure stage or unconscious stage - whenever it occurs - and if the attack continued, I greenlight myself for the ability to use lethal force along with the other options. That is my "go" trigger. This thread helped me figure that out.

I can legally (and morally for the aftermath) justify the immediate use of lethal force to defend an unconscious/seizing victim that continues to get a beat down - be it one or multiple attackers.
 
#83 ·
I would call 911, if they turned on me for calling 911 and attempted to assault me, or the "cameraman" attempted to assault me, oh well.
You can use less than lethal force and still put a hurting on someone.
A lot can be done with pressure point control tactics.
 
#84 ·
I agree with those who say they would not intervene in a fight, in most cases, I would not either. A fight is mutual combat. This was not mutual combat, it was an continuing ADW/GBI on a person either unwilling or unable to defend them self. I see a significant difference between the two. Kind of reminds me of the thread "Do You Have To Fight", only without a ccw.

One could say that if they are not willing to defend them self, why should I? There are many reasons that may be, and while they may be important to others, to me they are not, not in the face of a savage attack.

This incident, IMO, is somewhat unique in that it is a high level attack that could most likely be stopped with a low level intervention.
 
#85 ·
TVJ Post #82 = Outstanding rationale. :hand56:
 
#86 · (Edited)
YouTube - McDonalds Beating Victim Speaks Out (Chrissy Lee Polis)

Here is the interview of the victim, Chrissy Lee Polis, a transgender individual. According to Chrissy, the attack was sparked when one of the assailants boyfriend made a flirtatious comment towards her, and after that it was a swarm attack. I was not there to see exactly what happened to start the event but I would intervene if I saw multiple people stomping a lone victim.

The McDonalds employee that filmed the incident has been fired.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do remember a similar incident on the news when I was younger. Three white males beating a lone hispanic male. The police pull up, and the hispanic male uses the opportunity to try to take off. The police, needing to question all participants pursue him until they can interview him. He is somewhat rude with the police officer, refusing to give his name as he sat on the curb, bleeding from his face. When other cops gather around, he ends up lashing out at the police, fighting them as they try to handcuff him. As it turns out, he had followed one of the assailant's girlfriend into their apartment complex, offering her a ride. She refused multiple times, and when he tried to forcefully put her into his car, her screams brought her boyfriend and his two friends running.
 
#91 ·
I love the old lady.

I notice her physical vulnerabilities.

I notice she's armed only with Big Clanking Brass B****.

I have profound respect for her.
 
#93 ·
I watched that video 3 times. All I can say is that a-hole employee taking the video told the girls to hurry up and leave because the cops were called made my stomach turn. Thta scenario is the one perfect to deploy OC into the eyes of the two savages. The two on one could be construed as displacement of force up to including fear of death, so spray could have been used without question.

On the other hand you have minimum wage kids working at Mcd's who are too scared to get involved, so I can't blame them for non interaction. I truly believe had older more responsible citizens been dining at that time someone would have jumped in and separated them earlier. That poor girl went into some seizure.
 
#94 ·
I saw this video posted on another site, and it made me sick to my stomach. I am not sure of all of the details involved with this incident, but to treat another human being this way is sad to say the very least. I do give the older lady in the video a lot of credit for standing up to this two idiots. I guess the older generations that have seen and experienced a lot in their lives still understand that in times when people are vulnerable someone has to take a stand. The people working at the restaurant on the other hand should be ashamed at how they responded. People wonder why people believe in personal defense, and the right to carry, tell them to look as this video and it should answer their question.
 
#97 ·
Things not as they seem

Most of these posts have the exact same reaction I had to just watching the video, but there's more to the story. This was a "transgendered" woman (ie. partially-converted biological man in drag) who was harrassing these two women in the womens restroom and wouldn't leave.

We all find it impossible to believe that a man observing a helpless woman being beaten by two not-so-intimidating unarmed white females wouldn't have the gonads to step in and stop it. In this case the men observing couldn't stomach defending a disgusting pervert and figured with no escalating violence they'd just let him get what was coming to him for his behavior. What the video also doesn't include is that the seisure was a fake - he got right up when the cops showed up, wasn't drowsy, remembered it all, etc.

I agree with most of you that in any case this situation doesn't call for brandishing a firearm even if you had it.
 
#98 · (Edited)
Most of these posts have the exact same reaction I had to just watching the video, but there's more to the story. This was a "transgendered" woman (ie. partially-converted biological man in drag) who was harrassing these two women in the womens restroom and wouldn't leave.

We all find it impossible to believe that a man observing a helpless woman being beaten by two not-so-intimidating unarmed white females wouldn't have the gonads to step in and stop it. In this case the men observing couldn't stomach defending a disgusting pervert and figured with no escalating violence they'd just let him get what was coming to him for his behavior. What the video also doesn't include is that the seisure was a fake - he got right up when the cops showed up, wasn't drowsy, remembered it all, etc.

I agree with most of you that in any case this situation doesn't call for brandishing a firearm even if you had it.

If the perp thug women have a problem with him/her, call management and/or the cops.

We have the rule of law for a reason.

Help me see the legal justification for a lawless multiperson vigilante beatdown.

Please show me the law. Oh wait, you cannot because it doesnt exist.

I notice you seem to believe in a Relativistic application of the rule of law

I notice this is your first post.

Fake seizure is irrelevant. I am reasonable to conclude he/she is having a legitimate seizure. The fact that it may or may not be fake is irrelevent to my legally reasonable belief that the seizure is real, he/she is being gravely wounded/killed, and the potential and immediate use of my Glock, at that specific unconscious/seizure point, to neutralize the threat.

If you find the transgender bothersome and ________(insert pejorative here), that is your business and I support your right to your opinion. Avoid getting involved in the situation.

But your reasoning in your post is specious and middle-school-ish (age 10-12) in your attempt at justification of what's clearly illegal for societies holistic benefit.
 
#103 ·
randian said:
So? Last I checked girls are perfectly capable of killing you.
True, but they are also not a resilient in physical confrontations.

randian said:
When did brawlers become harmless? I, or the victim, can be made just as dead or maimed by brawlers as by fighters.
I did not say they were harmless, but they are less capable than fighters.

randian said:
After the fact reasoning. If you intervene early you never get the chance to see if the girls will back off because an elderly woman told them to. And don't forget that they didn't back off much, kept dragging the girl by her hair even as the elderly woman got in their way, and kept attacking once the elderly lady walked away.
After the fact reasoning in view of what happened, but also evaluation of their likely responses to active intervention, based on experience. If they don't back off, take it to the level that they do. Still without the introduction of lethal force.
 
#104 ·
Randian your comments show your lack of expierence in dealing with disorderly subjects in a physically combative mode. Nothing in this video showed a need to introduce a firearm or deadly force into the equation. That is why it is so important to have other means of lower levels of force when you carry a firearm so that you can escalate if need be but use lesser force if that is what the situation calls for as it did in this case being discussed. Many have suggested OC spray which I believe would have ended the assault immediately with these two females as they were as Guantes said brawlers not fighters. You go brandishing a weapon and it is not justified and you will find yourself being charged with ADW. Just because you cannot handle a situation that requires physical intervention does not justify the display of a firearm as a means of threat or intimidation on your part. Call the police and be a good witness if that is what you need to do. May I suggest you read all the seven pages of post on this thread before making an assumption as to why you think other posters are wrong and their responses are incorrect.
 
#107 ·
I re-read my states laws on use of force. It says you can use deadly force to stop the commission of a felony you may be witnessing. I wonder if this would qualify as felony assault? If so you would be justified (in my state) to shoot them. However when they start to flee, you cannot shoot them anymore. So pop one, and let the others run away. Just food for thought.
 
#109 ·
Assuming I was there for the whole event and saw what happened from beginning to when the beating began, I would have intervened after i saw that the force given to the one being attacked was to the point of serious harm(right about when the kicks started). I'm a decently husky guy. I can stand toe to toe with some of the good ones and hold my own. Seeing the amount of force given to repel the attackers by the manager shows me that a good couple of pushes/slaps/punches would have successfully removed the attackers long enough till police assistance was there. I would have placed myself as a block between the attackers and the victim. No where in the video did I see a point where I feel that I would have drawn my weapon.
 
#110 ·
I don't think I buy the latest story that the attack was because the victum was a transgender male that refused to leave the ladies room. Looking at this video
YouTube - McDonalds Beating Victim Speaks Out (Chrissy Lee Polis)
I don't think the attackers could tell either. Assuming that the ladies room has stalls, not urinals there is no way they would know this wasn't a woman.
The victum claims the attack started over a conversation between the girl's (14 year old, I believe) boyfriend and the victum. It's hard to imagine a 14 year old being this jealious yet I think that's exactly what happened. I have seen teenagers acting this way. That age makes their hormones leap and it controls all their actions. I'll go as far as to say the boyfriend is probably considerable older than the 14 year old. It may have been employee in the blue shirt that semi-intervened. That may explain why he wasn't that forcefull in his attempts to stop the attack.

The question of the use of a ladies room by a transgender male raises an interesting delemia. Consider the options, go into a mens room while dressed as a woman perhaps inducing an unwanted advance by anyone in the mens room, or go into a ladies
room, act like a woman, use a stall with a door, and no one is the wiser. I doubt he would make a point of trying to draw attention to the fact that he was actually not a woman.
 
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