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Woman being beaten in restaurant...what would you do? (Merged)

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Thread: Woman being beaten in restaurant...what would you do? (Merged)

  1. #76
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    a .45 to the knee cap works much better than karate for me.


  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    What if they move and charge you? Now you have a weapon out and could be in danger of losing it. You are again going to have a hard time articulating you felt your life was threatened by 2 girls when no weapons were displayed (except yours).
    Like I said, I'll analyze the situation and be prepared for the aftermath (good or bad). And who would be stupid enough to charge someone with a loaded gun (empty-handed)? If I was charged by 2 girls in that situation and I knew they didn't have a weapon I'll gladly taken them down without deadly force. I'm 6' 3"+ and 230+ pounds. I can easily take down most men without a sweat. I'm sure as heck not worried about some 14 and 18 year old GIRLS charging me.

    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    Sure the display of a weapon could stop an attack, but don't display it just as intimidation if you aren't prepared to use it. IMHO the introduction of a weapon in this situation is unnecessarily escalating it.
    I'm not some stupid little kid who thinks a gun's a "toy". I didn't say I was going to brandish a gun to "intimate" someone. Reread what I said. I said that is what I would do. You're entitled to do whatever you want.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by bentcursor View Post
    Does anyone stop to think that you are watching a partial video with no facts to substantiate what you think you are seeing? Without all the facts how can you justify getting involved more than calling 911 and being a good witness? In all the posts I've read, no one refers to this article: Update: McDonald’s Responds to Horrific Beating Vid as Police Charge 14-Year-Old Girl in Possible ‘Hate Crime’ | The Blaze and the following interesting report:

    "However, the website The Smoking Gun has uncovered a very odd claim. According to the site, the person who filmed the video was in fact a McDonald’s employee named Charm Hackett. But, he says, the victim was not a woman".

    He claims that the victim was using the women's bathroom and was told to leave. So my point is not that the attackers are innocent. Just that we don't have nearly enough facts to make any informed decisions.
    Here is another link claiming she/he is a transgender and it may be a hate crime.

    ROSEDALE, Md. (AP) A transgender woman whose brutal attack at a McDonald's restaurant in Maryland was captured on video that later went viral said Saturday she was the victim of a hate crime.

    Twenty-two-year-old Chrissy Lee Polis told The Baltimore Sun that since the attack last Monday, "I'm just afraid to go outside now because of stuff like this."

    The video posted online shows a woman being attacked and apparently having a seizure. Baltimore County police say a 14-year-old girl has been charged as a juvenile and an 18-year-old woman faces an assault charge in the case.

    Polis told the newspaper that after she used the restroom, "They said, 'That's a dude, that's a dude and she's in the female bathroom.'"
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Well, that was certainly worth hosing the two thugs down with a 2 oz can of OC spray. What happens after that would be their call.
    nah, make it a 4oz supersize, fill the place up, after all the employees deserve some of the drift also for there lack of action.

    now I'll bet that if you gave one of these girls a good whack on the elbow with a sap it would take the fight right out of them and they would be crying like a baby for mama.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    MitchellCT,

    For my own edification, I would be interested in an example of a situation, involving a stranger, that you would intervene in.
    Seeing someone walking up to a woman loading groceries into an SUV at my local Stop & Shop with her kids with her and trying to take one of the kids or smashing her about the head with a brick/random heavy object.

    Something simple like that. I have a relatively good idea of what she's doing at the moment, and i have a relatively good idea of what the guy attacking her would be doing.

    A fight between people in a fast food place over something I'm not informed of?

    I'll call 911 for you.
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  6. #81
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Thanks Mitchell, appreciate the reply.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  7. #82
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    I got smoking mad when I saw this video.

    I care less that the victim is transgendered, gay, straight, purple, black, white, etc.

    She is non-thug.


    I notice the semi-manless MCD manager, through his physical presence, stops/slows the attack a few times.

    I have never hit a woman in my life.

    I agree with a heavy B****Slap, grab hair/body and throw them back/to the ground, OC, taser, if you carry those, as the primary go-to tactics.

    Perps were totally unaware during the beatdown. There are quite a few very heavy handed options

    In the video, there were no boyfriend thugs there to escalate/defend the perps in the moment.

    Putting the transgendered woman/man in the corner, getting in front of her physically stops the attack and defends victim. Call 911, leave line open and talk when I can.

    The perp girls step in again, same thing....slap, etc. If I go in hard the first time, it likely stops there...intending a Big Fat OODA loop reset.

    The video shows transgendered on ground, multiple attackers, unable to defend herself, undergoing beatdown. In Texas, the law clearly allows the use of force in this case to defend a third party and -Potentially- lethal force.

    As far as the use of lethal force to neutralize the perps, I must reasonably believe, right or wrong, that transgendered life was in immediate danger in that beatdown to shoot girl perps into the ground to neutralize them as a threat. It was an immediate need in the moment and I was reasonable to believe so.

    I think this one is a real grey area for me to justify and legally too grey for me.

    Here is my issue: On the video, the perps stop when the lame-a** manager comes over seemingly half heartedly and gets in the way. He does nothing beyond words and just getting in the way. I think a jury sees that and says that that level or somewhat higher (slap, palm to the face, throw down...ie aggressive but non lethal.....) was just fine to defend and all that was necessary and when I went to gun and shot into the ground - an excessive use of force.

    Now, headstomping, face/head/neck kicking: Extremely dangerous and very high risk of immediate lethal/grave harm. They do this from the beginning.

    Its not until the very end that some kick by the one of the girl perps before walking out the door -in what appears to be to the head- causes the seizures. (yes the other hits to the head were cumulative)

    At that seizure stage or unconscious stage - whenever it occurs - and if the attack continued, I greenlight myself for the ability to use lethal force along with the other options. That is my "go" trigger. This thread helped me figure that out.

    I can legally (and morally for the aftermath) justify the immediate use of lethal force to defend an unconscious/seizing victim that continues to get a beat down - be it one or multiple attackers.
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  8. #83
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    I would call 911, if they turned on me for calling 911 and attempted to assault me, or the "cameraman" attempted to assault me, oh well.
    You can use less than lethal force and still put a hurting on someone.
    A lot can be done with pressure point control tactics.
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  9. #84
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    I agree with those who say they would not intervene in a fight, in most cases, I would not either. A fight is mutual combat. This was not mutual combat, it was an continuing ADW/GBI on a person either unwilling or unable to defend them self. I see a significant difference between the two. Kind of reminds me of the thread "Do You Have To Fight", only without a ccw.

    One could say that if they are not willing to defend them self, why should I? There are many reasons that may be, and while they may be important to others, to me they are not, not in the face of a savage attack.

    This incident, IMO, is somewhat unique in that it is a high level attack that could most likely be stopped with a low level intervention.
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  10. #85
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    TVJ Post #82 = Outstanding rationale.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #86
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    YouTube - McDonalds Beating Victim Speaks Out (Chrissy Lee Polis)

    Here is the interview of the victim, Chrissy Lee Polis, a transgender individual. According to Chrissy, the attack was sparked when one of the assailants boyfriend made a flirtatious comment towards her, and after that it was a swarm attack. I was not there to see exactly what happened to start the event but I would intervene if I saw multiple people stomping a lone victim.

    The McDonalds employee that filmed the incident has been fired.

    I don't want to hijack the thread, but I do remember a similar incident on the news when I was younger. Three white males beating a lone hispanic male. The police pull up, and the hispanic male uses the opportunity to try to take off. The police, needing to question all participants pursue him until they can interview him. He is somewhat rude with the police officer, refusing to give his name as he sat on the curb, bleeding from his face. When other cops gather around, he ends up lashing out at the police, fighting them as they try to handcuff him. As it turns out, he had followed one of the assailant's girlfriend into their apartment complex, offering her a ride. She refused multiple times, and when he tried to forcefully put her into his car, her screams brought her boyfriend and his two friends running.
    Last edited by KTCameraman; April 24th, 2011 at 06:46 PM. Reason: added the latter part of the response
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    A situation like this would be trivially easy to bring to a stop without use of a firearm.
    You honestly believe you can take on 3 attackers by yourself, and that you can defend the victim at the same time? There's a good chance one or two occupy you while the others continue the beating. There's also a good chance that should you intervene, one or more of the male bystanders attacks you. They won't help the (white) girl, but they might help the (black) girls (attackers). In hindsight, I'd say that's highly likely considering the cameraman warned the attackers to leave. He's clearly on their side.

    And how about those of us who aren't 6'3/230 like Nine O Four? Should we sit around and hope the victim doesn't get killed or paralyzed by one of the several kicks to her head?

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    What if they move and charge you?
    You shoot them. Nobody attacks somebody armed with a gun without deadly intent.
    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    You are again going to have a hard time articulating you felt your life was threatened by 2 girls when no weapons were displayed (except yours).
    Wrong argument. You didn't get the weapon out because you felt your life was in danger, you got it out because you felt the victim's life was in danger. I don't know about Maryland, but in sane states like Arizona or Texas that's a good enough reason for a threat of deadly force.

    The other argument is that anybody who thinks 2 girls can't seriously hurt or kill you is a fool. You also can't be certain they won't escalate their attack on the victim (or you) by retrieving weapons from their purses.
    Quote Originally Posted by fastk9dad View Post
    IMHO the introduction of a weapon in this situation is unnecessarily escalating it.
    Escalating how? Do you know how long the beating is going to continue? Can you be certain they're going to stop before killing or maiming the victim?
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    You shoot them. Nobody attacks somebody armed with a gun without deadly intent.
    IMHO you're going to be facing an uphill battle. You involved yourself in a situation and introduced a deadly weapon and then shot the girls because you now feared they might take your gun. Had you not introduced your gun that would never of been a possibility.

    Wrong argument. You didn't get the weapon out because you felt your life was in danger, you got it out because you felt the victim's life was in danger. I don't know about Maryland, but in sane states like Arizona or Texas that's a good enough reason for a threat of deadly force.
    That's the laws in most places. But really, watching the first part of the video are you really in fear of the victims life? You better be able to articulate your fear to a jury and convince them. I've seen schoolyard brawls that are much more violent. Sure those girls are animals but IMHO it hadn't progressed to needing deadly force.

    The other argument is that anybody who thinks 2 girls can't seriously hurt or kill you is a fool. You also can't be certain they won't escalate their attack on the victim (or you) by retrieving weapons from their purses.
    I never said that, anyone can be capable, but you can't act on what they might or might not have in their purses. You need to react to what you see in front of you at the time.

    Escalating how? Do you know how long the beating is going to continue? Can you be certain they're going to stop before killing or maiming the victim?
    You escalated it because you brought the gun into the picture. Again, up until the end, are you are you really afraid for the victims life?


    That's just my take on the situation. If, and that's a BIG if, I were to interviene it would be to separate the girls and just break up the fight. Based on the actions of one employee and the old woman it would not of been hard to do. Personally, I think pulling a gun for what I saw would be the wrong answer.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

  15. #90
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by randian View Post
    You honestly believe you can take on 3 attackers by yourself, and that you can defend the victim at the same time? There's a good chance one or two occupy you while the others continue the beating. There's also a good chance that should you intervene, one or more of the male bystanders attacks you. They won't help the (white) girl, but they might help the (black) girls (attackers). In hindsight, I'd say that's highly likely considering the cameraman warned the attackers to leave. He's clearly on their side.

    And how about those of us who aren't 6'3/230 like Nine O Four? Should we sit around and hope the victim doesn't get killed or paralyzed by one of the several kicks to her head?
    I have to disagree with virtually everything in your post.

    There were two, maybe three attackers, all female.

    The attackers were brawlers, not fighters.

    The attackers backed off to some extent with the verbal intervention of the one employee. Whether that was due to racial lines is difficult to say. They also backed off to some degree with the intervention of the elder lady.

    Taking on the attackers, will at the same time defend the victim. The intervention must quickly reach the level that the attackers, no longer wish to participate. That could be accomplished without the introduction of lethal force.

    There is the possibility of intervention by other hostile males, you deal with that when/if it comes. IMO, cameraman is all mouth and would have no interest in physical intervention.

    I'm 5'8/155, an old man and I have no doubt that I could have stopped it.
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