Woman being beaten in restaurant...what would you do? (Merged)

[TVJ]

I love the old lady.

I notice her physical vulnerabilities.

I notice she's armed only with Big Clanking Brass B****.

I have profound respect for her.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Guantes]

Agreed, she had grit.

[dripster]

I watched that video 3 times. All I can say is that a-hole employee taking the video told the girls to hurry up and leave because the cops were called made my stomach turn. Thta scenario is the one perfect to deploy OC into the eyes of the two savages. The two on one could be construed as displacement of force up to including fear of death, so spray could have been used without question.

On the other hand you have minimum wage kids working at Mcd's who are too scared to get involved, so I can't blame them for non interaction. I truly believe had older more responsible citizens been dining at that time someone would have jumped in and separated them earlier. That poor girl went into some seizure.

[mel]

I saw this video posted on another site, and it made me sick to my stomach. I am not sure of all of the details involved with this incident, but to treat another human being this way is sad to say the very least. I do give the older lady in the video a lot of credit for standing up to this two idiots. I guess the older generations that have seen and experienced a lot in their lives still understand that in times when people are vulnerable someone has to take a stand. The people working at the restaurant on the other hand should be ashamed at how they responded. People wonder why people believe in personal defense, and the right to carry, tell them to look as this video and it should answer their question.

[TedBeau]

Does anyone stop to think that you are watching a partial video with no facts to substantiate what you think you are seeing? Without all the facts how can you justify getting involved more than calling 911 and being a good witness? In all the posts I've read, no one refers to this article: Update: McDonald’s Responds to Horrific Beating Vid as Police Charge 14-Year-Old Girl in Possible ‘Hate Crime’ | The Blaze and the following interesting report:

"However, the website The Smoking Gun has uncovered a very odd claim. According to the site, the person who filmed the video was in fact a McDonald’s employee named Charm Hackett. But, he says, the victim was not a woman".

He claims that the victim was using the women's bathroom and was told to leave. So my point is not that the attackers are innocent. Just that we don't have nearly enough facts to make any informed decisions.

I fail to see how either of these facts, the fact that the video was filmed by a McDonalds employee, or the fact that the victum may have been transgender makes any difference in your reaction. It's obvious that 1.) the two attackers are NOT LEO doing a police action. and 2) the victum could well be seriuosly injured by the attackers. The floor appears to be tiled, a fall or a kick to the head to drive her head to the tile could be fatal.

[TedBeau]

I have to disagree with virtually everything in your post.

There were two, maybe three attackers, all female.

The attackers were brawlers, not fighters.

The attackers backed off to some extent with the verbal intervention of the one employee. Whether that was due to racial lines is difficult to say. They also backed off to some degree with the intervention of the elder lady.

Taking on the attackers, will at the same time defend the victim. The intervention must quickly reach the level that the attackers, no longer wish to participate. That could be accomplished without the introduction of lethal force.

There is the possibility of intervention by other hostile males, you deal with that when/if it comes. IMO, cameraman is all mouth and would have no interest in physical intervention.

I'm 5'8/155, an old man and I have no doubt that I could have stopped it.

I'm with Gloves on this one. I think if anyone stepped in and STAYED in there to deend the girl several more of the bystanders might also have come to her aid. The elderly woman in white did. I don't know if she saw it all or happened in during the attack.
It actually seemed to me that the attackers knew her. The didn't seem the least bit interested in giving her any grief for interfering.
If you intervene and the attackers boy friend comes at you, you need to be ready for him.

[Paul]

Most of these posts have the exact same reaction I had to just watching the video, but there's more to the story. This was a "transgendered" woman (ie. partially-converted biological man in drag) who was harrassing these two women in the womens restroom and wouldn't leave.

We all find it impossible to believe that a man observing a helpless woman being beaten by two not-so-intimidating unarmed white females wouldn't have the gonads to step in and stop it. In this case the men observing couldn't stomach defending a disgusting pervert and figured with no escalating violence they'd just let him get what was coming to him for his behavior. What the video also doesn't include is that the seisure was a fake - he got right up when the cops showed up, wasn't drowsy, remembered it all, etc.

I agree with most of you that in any case this situation doesn't call for brandishing a firearm even if you had it.

[TVJ]

Most of these posts have the exact same reaction I had to just watching the video, but there's more to the story. This was a "transgendered" woman (ie. partially-converted biological man in drag) who was harrassing these two women in the womens restroom and wouldn't leave.

We all find it impossible to believe that a man observing a helpless woman being beaten by two not-so-intimidating unarmed white females wouldn't have the gonads to step in and stop it. In this case the men observing couldn't stomach defending a disgusting pervert and figured with no escalating violence they'd just let him get what was coming to him for his behavior. What the video also doesn't include is that the seisure was a fake - he got right up when the cops showed up, wasn't drowsy, remembered it all, etc.

I agree with most of you that in any case this situation doesn't call for brandishing a firearm even if you had it.

If the perp thug women have a problem with him/her, call management and/or the cops.

We have the rule of law for a reason.

Help me see the legal justification for a lawless multiperson vigilante beatdown.

Please show me the law. Oh wait, you cannot because it doesnt exist.

I notice you seem to believe in a Relativistic application of the rule of law

I notice this is your first post.

Fake seizure is irrelevant. I am reasonable to conclude he/she is having a legitimate seizure. The fact that it may or may not be fake is irrelevent to my legally reasonable belief that the seizure is real, he/she is being gravely wounded/killed, and the potential and immediate use of my Glock, at that specific unconscious/seizure point, to neutralize the threat.

If you find the transgender bothersome and ________(insert pejorative here), that is your business and I support your right to your opinion. Avoid getting involved in the situation.

But your reasoning in your post is specious and middle-school-ish (age 10-12) in your attempt at justification of what's clearly illegal for societies holistic benefit.

[Biggie313]

The McD's is literally 5 minutes from my house. I am so glade maryland isnt shall issue and the police protect us so well.

[randian]

IMHO you're going to be facing an uphill battle. You involved yourself in a situation and introduced a deadly weapon and then shot the girls because you now feared they might take your gun.

Where are you getting this "fear of losing gun" bit? Certainly not from anything I said. In this case, I'd be shooting them because after I displayed a weapon they attacked me or continued their attack on the victim, not because I'm afraid of losing my gun. The way I see it, if I'm displaying a firearm and you attack anyway, your attack can be presumed to have lethal intent.

Had you not introduced your gun that would never of been a possibility.

As I see it, had I not introduced the gun the victim might have been killed. That the old woman temporarily slowed the attack is post-hoc reasoning. At the time the attack started, I'd have no reason to presume such relatively trivial effort would be effective, and I'm not letting the attackers have the couple of minutes of barely restrained action they get before the old woman shows up.

That's the laws in most places. But really, watching the first part of the video are you really in fear of the victims life?

Did you miss the part where after the store manager walks away one of the girls gets behind him and kicks the victim in the head while she's down? That sort of thing very much makes me think the black girls are trying to kill the victim. Everybody knows that doing that is likely to lead to serious injury or death.

Sure those girls are animals but IMHO it hadn't progressed to needing deadly force.

You seem to be presuming I'd go in shooting first. I'd shove them away like the store manager did, but unlike him I wouldn't walk away from the victim and leave her defenseless. If they continued to attack then I'd get out a weapon. If, after seeing the gun, they attacked anyway, then I'd shoot them. If they had knives or other weapons I'd probably get my gun out immediately without bothering to separate them, and if they didn't back down after being told to stop, I'd shoot them.

[randian]

There were two, maybe three attackers, all female.

So? Last I checked girls are perfectly capable of killing you.

The attackers were brawlers, not fighters.

When did brawlers become harmless? I, or the victim, can be made just as dead or maimed by brawlers as by fighters.

The attackers backed off to some extent with the verbal intervention of the one employee. They also backed off to some degree with the intervention of the elder lady.

After the fact reasoning. If you intervene early you never get the chance to see if the girls will back off because an elderly woman told them to. And don't forget that they didn't back off much, kept dragging the girl by her hair even as the elderly woman got in their way, and kept attacking once the elderly lady walked away.

[fastk9dad]

You seem to be presuming I'd go in shooting first. I'd shove them away like the store manager did, but unlike him I wouldn't walk away from the victim and leave her defenseless. If they continued to attack then I'd get out a weapon. If, after seeing the gun, they attacked anyway, then I'd shoot them. If they had knives or other weapons I'd probably get my gun out immediately without bothering to separate them, and if they didn't back down after being told to stop, I'd shoot them.

You are correct, I did presume that, I'm not sure if you made that clear but my apologies if I missed your defined course of action earlier.

[Guantes]

So? Last I checked girls are perfectly capable of killing you.

True, but they are also not a resilient in physical confrontations.

When did brawlers become harmless? I, or the victim, can be made just as dead or maimed by brawlers as by fighters.

I did not say they were harmless, but they are less capable than fighters.

After the fact reasoning. If you intervene early you never get the chance to see if the girls will back off because an elderly woman told them to. And don't forget that they didn't back off much, kept dragging the girl by her hair even as the elderly woman got in their way, and kept attacking once the elderly lady walked away.

After the fact reasoning in view of what happened, but also evaluation of their likely responses to active intervention, based on experience. If they don't back off, take it to the level that they do. Still without the introduction of lethal force.

[Old School]

Randian your comments show your lack of expierence in dealing with disorderly subjects in a physically combative mode. Nothing in this video showed a need to introduce a firearm or deadly force into the equation. That is why it is so important to have other means of lower levels of force when you carry a firearm so that you can escalate if need be but use lesser force if that is what the situation calls for as it did in this case being discussed. Many have suggested OC spray which I believe would have ended the assault immediately with these two females as they were as Guantes said brawlers not fighters. You go brandishing a weapon and it is not justified and you will find yourself being charged with ADW. Just because you cannot handle a situation that requires physical intervention does not justify the display of a firearm as a means of threat or intimidation on your part. Call the police and be a good witness if that is what you need to do. May I suggest you read all the seven pages of post on this thread before making an assumption as to why you think other posters are wrong and their responses are incorrect.

[Guantes]

+1 Well put.