July 24th, 2006 10:35 AM
Martial arts experience and CCW? (hypothetical)
(Not sure what forum this should go in so I put it here. Mods feel free to move to a more appropriate locale.)
Ok, So let's say that you have a fair amount of martial arts experience - perhaps a black belt in taekwondo, kenpo, or something(it's all the same to the media and the legal system anyway, right?) but you are out of practice.
You are attacked by a BG with a drawn knife intent on turning you into a human sieve.
You respond with your trusty CW and return the favor to said BG.
What are the potential legal ramifications?
Should you have attempted to disarm the BG with some fancy martial arts moves and risk being cut?
Is this akin to using your OC before shooting?
Could you be viewed as a loose cannon who jumped to the top of the force scale instead of following the path of normal escalation?
"If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys
"I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."
July 24th, 2006 10:38 AM
I wouldn't think so. He'd armed with a deadly weapon (no range), and you neutralized the threat to you with a deadly weapon (with range). Since he presented his first and threatened, he's a valid target.
July 24th, 2006 10:54 AM
No law I know of demands you use a gradually increasing lethality to defend against aggressive lethality. In the time it takes to switch from one to the other, you can get killed. Same thing with physical skills vs. a concrete weapon. Unless it can be your primary (due to currency of skills), I wouldn't worry too much. BTW, there's nothing that says any martial art skill in the past guarantees your current ability to defent against bladed weapons. Those are bad news for anyone, particularly if the BG knows how to use it. Since you can't know ... neutralize with what you do know. My $0.02.
Originally Posted by PapaScout
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
July 24th, 2006 04:24 PM
#1 Rule of a Knife Fight ............. Your gonna get cut.
#2 If you pull a knife on me .......... Your gonna get SHOT
For LEOs the magic distance is 21 feet
It has been proven that BGs can reach you and stab you before you can draw and fire your weapon (on Avg) out to 21 ft. away.
#3 Don't let your EGO write a check your ass can't cash
Martial arts or no .... knives are a serious matter, don't attempt to take one away from a BG unless you have absolutely no other choice. And it's a matter of immediate life or death. (in other words) your on your back or backed into a corner and your going to be stabbed no matter what you do. Then you have nothing to lose.
July 24th, 2006 04:32 PM
If you're justified to shoot, your ability to perform a perfect roundhouse isn't gonna change anything, criminally anyway. I'm sure if you got dragged into civil court an ambulance chaser might try to use your a-la Steven Segal skills against you.
July 24th, 2006 05:49 PM
What works "on the mat vs real life" isn't always the same.
My brother was always a fan of "Billy Jack." He proceeded to demonstrate his roundhouse kick, complete with the Billy Jack dialogue and found out that a kick above waist-level could all-to-easily become the beginning of a very funny prat-fall bit, when attempted upon someone who just lived for such an opening.
Someone say, like his older brother!
OK, the short version:
Given a choice between the "empty-hand" or a gun against a knife, I'd call it a no-brainer. Go with the gun. I'd say to do otherwise would be just plain stupid. Perhaps, suicidally so.
Political Correctness has now "evolved" into Political Cowardice.
July 24th, 2006 05:58 PM
If you were in fear for your life, it does not matter legally what you used to defend yourself. Not to mention some states still consider martial arts training to constitute using a deadly weapon.
July 24th, 2006 06:39 PM
you said "attacked" if this is the case no martial arts here,
get away or untangled and let the lead fly. As others have or would
have said a knife is a very bad weapon, don;t fool around here.
I really like a S&W 4513 tsw.
July 24th, 2006 06:46 PM
Exactly what states recognize martial arts as using a deadly weapon ??
Originally Posted by AutoFan
If your referring to that old riduculas line ,
"These hands are registered as a deadly weapon !"
Thats a load of bull.
If someone said that to me, I'd LMAO
Some people just need a reality check.
July 24th, 2006 08:26 PM
LE are trained in lots of holds, strikes and take downs. Yet they go to the gun if someone has a knife too. They respond with 1 step higher of force than the aggresor.
"In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson
Nemo Me Impune Lacesset
July 24th, 2006 08:30 PM
I used to do a fair amount of practice with knives. We would chalk the edges of a rubber knife and do full contact practice. Its amazing how you think you are doing well and when its over, you've got chalk all over your Ghi.
Anyone with experience in knife fighting knows that no matter how good you are or how good you think you are,you are going to get cut.
When we felt like we could handle a disarm, our instructor would use 2 knives on you. There was NO WAY you could win against that. You might block one, but the second one would get you everytime.
With that being said, one would be a fool not to use a gun against a knife if he had one at his disposal.
As for me, I'll shoot the first sucker that tries it, cause I aint getting cut.
When someone pulls a knife on you, there is no force continum to be used. He's called it and you are perfectly with in your rights to end it with a gun.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
July 24th, 2006 09:08 PM
I have martial arts experience and let me tell you my first style of choice is "chung gun pow" And yes I am versed in knife defense, Strikes and the whole 9 and regardless of what you know you are never faster than a guy who is determined and trained with a pistol. Never, never.
Listen, Think and React.....Nuff Said.....
July 26th, 2006 02:52 PM
words for words
fists for fists
deadly force for deadly force no matter what its form.
July 26th, 2006 07:50 PM
As rocky pointed out, LEOs will use one step higher in force to be able to control a situation. The LAST type of force is deadly and they do not have to escalate progressively the amount of force to "rise" to deadly force, they can skip all steps and go straight to deadly if that situation dicdates.
As for your question, I believe that you were talking about if you were to shoot in a knife-type situation, if the prosecution or the BGs family will use your previous martial arts experience against you in court. The answer is that it is very possible. Now I'm not a layer and don't have any experience in court for martial arts, but I would think that your best defenses would be sociatal and certification.
By sociatal I mean that not everyone is trained in martial arts, disarms, etc. and that an ordinary person would not be expected to disarm someone with a knife (deadly force) in such a situation. By certification, I mean the documents that show that you were trained in martial arts.
Right now in Arizona a modification in our CCW law is coming to become law in the near future. That modification makes it so that renewal of our CCW permits that says that we do not need to go through a class or qualification to renew our permit. While many will say this is a great thing, it can also be used against you. Your qualification score is part of a subpoenable record.
Even though it's not required, it is better for us to continue taking the classes and re-qualifying because it shows a proficiency in shooting and that we are consistently reminded of the law. That will show in court that we know the law and are proficient in shooting.
So, my best guess is that you should make sure there is a record (as well as where it is held) of your proficiency in martial arts. You could then equate this training in court to things such as firearms training and that without constant demonstration and continued practice with proficiency in using martial arts would effectively render you unqualified to use them.
Hope that helps.
July 26th, 2006 10:58 PM
I think it would be a good shoot.
"Hell of a thing, killin' a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have."
- William Munny (Clint Eastwood in the Unfrogivin)
“The graveyards are full of indispensable men.” – Napoleon Bonaparte
“My Idea of a fair fight is beating baby seals with a club”
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