This is a discussion on the "Waffle House" attack................ within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Chad Rogers I won't speculate as to why you seem to think my overall comments were directed to your personally. As for ...
and as far as my "exploits", let me tell you something mister, there is nothing "cool" about drawing your gun on someone and fearing for your life and being scared to death.....
the purpose of this site is for all of us who CCW to learn from each other and discuss scenarios.........and i take great offense to your flippant attitude on my encounters.......
and that is the last word you will hear from me about that.......
No offense to anyone who has spoken up. It is good to see a vid like this, just to think about a real scenario. I would have given up my wallet. That said, there *appear* to be several moments at which I would have felt comfortable acting. This was not a highly coordinated crew. I will also say that I reckon that I would not be getting waffles late at night. Nothing against those who would. I also stay out of alleys, when possible. Sunlight and open sight lines are partial deterrents.
A good time to start engaging would have been after everyone got down low. That way, once I am down low with everyone else, most of my shots would be at an upward angle, and the 3 BGs would be the only ones standing/running. In addition, the BGs are the only ones dressed in black with hoods on, which really separates them from the rest of the crowd. I would prioritize the one with the long gun, provided there wasn't a BG with a gun closer to me.
We practice a lot of three target scenarios in our bi-weekly IDPA Wednesday night indoor shoots. We usually have T1 fairly close which ends up being a point shoot or shooting one handed from retention. T2 and T3 get spread out with increasing distances along with some no shoot targets overlapping them. We even do the occasional low light scenarios, too. This makes for great real world practice.
Does anyone have any thoughts on an alternate plan of engagement concerning taking one of the BGs hostage? Especially if you have your gun to the head of an unshot BG with him in front of you as a shield? Maybe if the BGs don't want their buddy to take a bullet, they may be convinced to drop their weapons. This might be preferable for those that just carry a 5 shot snubby. Hmnn...3 BGs and only 5 shots.......you better have a plan. I carry either a 1911 bobtail with 9 shots on board in cooler weather, and a G26 with 11 on board in warmer weather. I can afford the ammo if I have to engage.
This alternate scenario of taking one of the BGs hostage would definitely be a twist on the typical IDPA strategy mindset that we typically practice in IDPA. When it is 3 vs. 1 odds, some thinking outside the box may just be in order.
I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous.
I have a strong respect for that.
I have ZERO.
I want to avoid even one in my lifetime, yet I train weekly, including quarterly Airsoft and Glock FoF simulations with highly trained professionals. I enjoy it, which helps me consistently train something I likely never use.
I agree with your original post as a completely valid, playing-the-odds-smart tactical option (another robbery no one killed, force disparity, rifle in the room etc., got the drop, possible pancake/carb food coma combined with an adrenaline dump to deal with).
This is the backbone by which I judge any sidearm related action I may wish to take. How low is my risk in action versus compliance to walk away unharmed. I notice this can go from clear cut to opaque and can be very fluid.
I noticed you posted a semi-smarmy comment to someone that holds a different opinion.Generally, you have solid posts that I appreciate reading from which I gain insight - like I state above.As for your exploits, I'll wait for the book or the movie to come out.
I think this comment was very unnecessary and denigrated bruce21's experience and difference of opinion.
I view us here at defensivecarry as all on the same team.
I find the bruce21 "real-deal" threads instructional; here are the links:
First time in my life i had to point a gun at someone!!!
Folks, it finally happened.....I pulled my gun this afternoon in self-defense!!!
"No man in the wrong can stand up against a fellow that's in the right and keeps on a-comin."
Texas Ranger Capt William Jessie McDonald
You would need a 45 with clear shots ... one jam and those boyz would kill everyone in the place .... Give them your wallet and forget it
I was in a Burger King that got robbed. He only took money from the register, but if he approached me I was ready. These days it's not unusual for punks to shoot everyone.
There have been several "opinions" posted on this situation that have totally surprised /shocked me. However, each of us has to make their own decision as to what is right and wrong in a particular situation, do it in "split seconds", and act accordingly. It is one thing to be able to watch a video, from three different angles, over and over, and state what you would do AFTER you've had a chance to analyze the situation sitting at your computer. There are a couple of things that would have "FLASHED" upon entrance of these 3, cough cough, gentlemen. FLASH number one: it doesn't take THREE people to just rob the cash register. FLASH number two: Because of flash one, it is now a given that I am going to have to make a decision, and make it VERY QUICKLY, as to: will I willingly go to the floor at their order, will I willingly give up my valuables as they frisk me, will I willingly assume that my weapon will not be discovered during the frisk, will I willingly accept whatever happens to me when they discover my weapon??? FLASH number three: Because of flashes one and two, I have predetermined my actions (based on mindset developed considering these type scenarios), and my actions will be to REACT IMMEDIATELY. I cannot afford to assume the "gentlemen" will not use their weapons, against myself or other patrons. They have already exhibited the propensity of violence by showing up in "numbers" and brandishing at least one long gun and one handgun. Depending on which gunman is nearest to me, will determine which one I WILL take down first. I would hope it would be the "gentleman" with the long gun, but I have no control over where I am sitting in relation to their positioning/location/movement about the waffle house. All I know is that I will have been sitting with the most advantageous view of the door that I could get upon my entering the waffle house and choosing my seat. After engaging the "nearest", then MY movement becomes the next important part of my actions. Movement to not only give myself an opportunity to avoid the potential/possible return shots from the other "gentleman" with a weapon, but movement TOWARD the other individual. There is NO COVER in this situation, therefore MOVEMENT is my best friend and that must be toward the other weapon. During this movement toward the other weapon, I of course will be engaging. Then I will have to attempt to locate the 3rd individual. It was unknown from the beginning as to whether or not he was armed as he was carrying a "bag for the goodies" while the other two were brandishing their weapons. Which brings me to the last Flash prior to engaging: Because he was carrying a bag for the goodies, that was also an indicator that THREE individuals weren't after just the money in the register. As has been discussed many times here in the forums, YOUR mindset must be developed and honed as much as possible prior to potential situations. When you walk into a place, whether it be a store, a restaurant, or other type of establishment, do you immediately search out potential cover/concealment if needed, potential exits other than the main entrance, if needed, etc...It's all part of SA and that includes MINDSET and TACTICS as to your actions in a "go to heck" situation. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say I WOULD HAVE ENGAGED and engaged as quickly as possible. AOJ (ability, opportunity, jeopardy) has been cemented as soon as the 3 BG's entered the establishment. It now becomes a matter of survival....FIGHT TO WIN...FIGHT TO SURVIVE. Could I be hurt, most definitely. Could others be hurt, most definitely. Could my family members, if they accompanied me, be hurt, most definitely. Would I sit back, depend on the graciousness of the BG's to not hurt me, and do nothing, MOST DEFINITELY NOT. JMO
Last edited by First Sgt; May 8th, 2011 at 11:22 PM.
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
I don't like Waffle House, so I'm exempt.
kidding of course :)
I'm Wondering about the Texas fresh pursuit law myself.
Hey First Sgt: Your comments are well said for someone who has been thoroughly trained for firearm situations. As much as I want to think I am properly trained, the reality is that I am a complete and utter novice who has his CCWP, knows his firearm and how to use it properly but, as Dirty Harry says "man has to know his limitations" and my limitations are great in number and they put me far away from your comments and actions. I rely on SA as my primo defense--in a Waffle House at night?--no friggin way--that goes for just about any kind of fast food type quickie meal/food place or suspect scenario. Imminent danger to my life? At what point is that true? Too much going on for me. Odds of it happening? Next to zero. Always a what if but I find my odds are better that it will not happen, that I will not be in a Waffle House and that 3 perps are going to execute everyone including me if I do not react.