the "Waffle House" attack................ - Page 4

the "Waffle House" attack................

This is a discussion on the "Waffle House" attack................ within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TVJ I view us here at defensivecarry as all on the same team. Which is exactly why these topics should be discussed ...

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Thread: the "Waffle House" attack................

  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    I view us here at defensivecarry as all on the same team.
    Which is exactly why these topics should be discussed from all angles, with reason being as important an element of the analysis as that of emotion.

    I have reviewed these threads and I simply don't see the linkage between pulling a gun defensively in preparation for its use in response to perceived danger, and actually initiating an all out firefight inside a relatively crowded Waffle House. That is not a denigration of the poster. It is simply what I consider to be a cold, unemotional apples versus oranges analysis of this Waffle House case study.

    I continue to maintain the belief that there could be very good reasons why some people would opt not to go to gunfire in this Waffle House scenario.


  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote:
    I continue to maintain the belief that there could be very good reasons why some people would opt not to go to gunfire in this Waffle House scenario.

    I agree with this statement, each persons trigger to act is set by their training, gun they carry (this would not be a place to act with a 5 shot J-frame or any other pocket pistol) and our mindsets would play a part in our action. But as Frist Sgt posted their are those who could and maybe should react at the on set of the event.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  3. #48
    Member Array Macantic's Avatar
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    I feel the same way.
    Quote Originally Posted by tkruf View Post
    Hard to tell if all three were armed, but I could tell that two of them were. You are right, 3 against one, not good odds. Also a lot of innocent people in there to take a hit if one of your rounds misses target (and there are three, you'd have to do some fast shootin'). Hand them the cash from your wallet act like you're playing nice like the rest of the innocent people, take note of descriptions, etc.. keep your wits about you and the first one that starts shooting, gets a bullet.

    I'm not going to get into a shoot out with 2 or 3 armed thugs in the middle of a diner full of innocent victims unless I can help it. I'm not Bruce Willis.

    Now would be a good time to have a "throw down wallet"
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  4. #49
    Member Array Batty67's Avatar
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    Hmmn. 3 on 1 is tough, tough to do with so many bystanders. Going outside and following them makes sense to try and get their license plate, but shooting at them as the guy did. Not so much unless they fired first. I think that in that situation, you be ready to shoot if they shoot or damn sure look like they're going to, but otherwise...it's just too risky. So you lose your wallet and cell and replay in your mind what you could have done differently. But probable come back to doing nothing.

  5. #50
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Which is exactly why these topics should be discussed from all angles, with reason being as important an element of the analysis as that of emotion.



    I have reviewed these threads and I simply don't see the linkage between pulling a gun defensively in preparation for its use in response to perceived danger, and actually initiating an all out firefight inside a relatively crowded Waffle House. That is not a denigration of the poster. It is simply what I consider to be a cold, unemotional apples versus oranges analysis of this Waffle House case study.

    I continue to maintain the belief that there could be very good reasons why some people would opt not to go to gunfire in this Waffle House scenario.

    Thx for your clarification Chad
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

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  6. #51
    Senior Member Array Phillep Harding's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I continue to maintain the belief that there could be very good reasons why some people would opt not to go to gunfire in this Waffle House scenario.
    Good reasons why some would not, and good reasons why some /would/, and effectively.

    I only saw two seats with a tactical advantage, but the idiotic way they moved and turned their backs to everyone without leaving one person to watch for trouble meant several people /could/ have reacted, even sitting in an otherwise bad location.

    No, I don't regard myself as among those who could have played "hero", just that I recognize that some people have skills I don't.

  7. #52
    TVJ
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    Thow down wallet is a nice little tool and option.




    For those that wish to go to gun at the WaffleHouse......

    Goto 3:52 through 4:10 in the video. You get to see Riflethug, somewhere in that timezone, put his longarm backwards under his armpit....either at the register or when he bends over the black woman on the floor.

    There are three booths in that section with glass windows bordering. In the third booth from the top left sits a man in white shirt sleeve who hands (barely see) his wallet to RifleThug. This is my pretend armed CCH. I notice that he doesnt go under the table or prone out despite alot of others doing so. If thugs order this, he doesnt get shot for non-compliance. (note, the situation totally changes if CCH goes under the table. I modeled it loosely with an open office desk and alot of new issues come up if you wish to fight from this position: jammed position, cannot see all perps, etc. test it yourself. I found it eye opening and really useful)

    IMO These three booths (Whitesleeve and the two in front of him) are the best tactical foundation/location to attack given location of all perps. Hand wallet, gun under table, gun out, squeeze two headshots into Rriflethug at pointblank when he moves his head naturally close to take wallet.

    So in the moment CHL decided to act and shot Riflethug right here. Where were the other thugs and what were they doing? What could Whitesleeves have seen just prior?

    When I analyze the video from the different angles of video orienting on Whitesleeves as CCH, I notice the following:

    At the time Whitesleeves gives his wallet to riflethug, the RedBagThug is straight down the aisle from where whitesleeves sits. RedBagThug steps on a patron and is totally focused on getting patron valuables at the other end of the diner. See beginning of video starting at 0:25.

    The other thug that showed gun upon entering and hopped over to the food prep area I call RegisterThug. He hops over at 2:00. Where is he when riflethug takes whitesleeves wallet?

    He is at the register at 2:11 and right behind Rifleguy (off camera at the 3:52-4:10 timezone). Waitress hovers initially around Registerthug, a large point/shoot issue to me.

    Pause at 2:30.

    At 2:30 RegisterThug puts gun in right pocket to grab the cash. You can see RegisterThugs right hand grabbing normally at the register.

    Waitress moves away (relatively) from her previously close position.

    Where is third RedBag Thug? At 2:30 you see him all the way at the end of the diner up in the left corner of the video.

    Risk appears lowest at this moment in the robbery for fast neutralization and to avoid getting shot.

    Rifleguy and RegisterThug take their weapons out of the fight; Rifleguy puts his head close to whitesleeves, and RedBagThug is at the other end of the diner. The waitress moves away from RegisterThug.

    This is all on the video as fact.

    I realize that once the CHL gun goes bang bang with rounds into riflethugs head, the situation changes. However, this appears the lowest risk tactical moment in the video. I wanted to see if, where, and how much of an advantage exists.

    I avoid any argument of whether anyone "should or shouldn't" act.


    I notice the following:

    The importance of Location, Location, Location as one critical foundational advantage. Sitting in any of those three booths around whitesleeves.....these booths face (at a 90 degree angle) the door and back gets covered as well.

    I notice that finding the tactical, lower risk, self defense advantage requires - for me and in analyzing this video - a level of calm but intense focus to notice key tactical DETAILS. I have to automatically do this so intensely that my one point pointed focus on this displaces my emotionality during the event. This is an important FoF training point for me.

    To lower and/or accurately define and lower risk, this requires me to pre-program and know what I am looking for if/before I decide to act in a violent store-type robbery: where is the rifle/most deadly weapon in the room, do any weapons go out of play close to me, do thugs turn away/give me their back, are innocents out of the line of fire or do I need to move myself to move the backstop.....lots going on.

    Conversely, if i find myself watching the situation unfold like I would watch TV show....a certain zoned out relaxation - I am tactically out of the fight already. My tactical abilities degrade the further away I get from this calm, intense focus. If I'm in TV watching mode or too emotional, I am tactically out of the fight already.

    This is a useful and obvious "go or possible go" vs comply action indicator for me. I notice I can still have the option to comply from the tactical mindset.

    Food for thought; YMMV.
    The United States Constitution 1791. All Rights Reserved.

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  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    another vote for the throw-down wallet. which i have for many years carried when going downtown or out of town.
    Last edited by claude clay; May 9th, 2011 at 11:37 PM.
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  9. #54
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    If you start shooting in this environment (haven't watched the vid), you'd better be on target with that rifle guy. If he's not out of the fight right away, then you have a 2:1 shootout in a crowded room. . . you don't have any blood left, you're 100% adrenaline.

    For those who are talking about seeing them coming in, why not grab your phone, dial 911 while they're still coming in. . . say "shooter coming into waffle house at (location) and put the phone under your napkin, still on. The faster LE can get there, the more likely they get captured, a plus for everyone.

    Now, after that, I still need to decide whether to engage, and I'm not sure how I'd react IRL. If I were alone it would probably be different than if I had family there.

  10. #55
    mel
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    This kind of thing pisses me off to no end, people just sitting there trying to eat their doubled, smothered, chunked, and covered and they get held up! I hope that they caught these idiots.

  11. #56
    Member Array devildog24's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Like all situations that are seen on the net it is hard to see what all was really going on. From what I have read other places on this video there was at least one woman inside who was armed and then the man in red shirt who runs out behind them to get his gun and does fire at them. Woman who was armed inside said she never felt like she could or should get her gun in the action, she was there I was not.

    Times like this are great times to have a drop wallet, I hate to give up my wallet and do not like the idea of getting on the floor. But will I get on the floor or ground? YES, I have done so in a FOF situation looking down the barrel of a full auto M 16 airsoft. I say it was because I had hurt my leg and could hardly move, but I got down.

    If I was to have take action in this situation the BG with the rifle would have been my first target. He showed to have the most experience and had the most accurate weapon, . He did show bad gun handling at the end with the gun under his arm and pointing behind him.

    If I was to have been there I most likely would have been sitting in the area he came to, sitting so I could be watching the door. So his being my first target would have also made him my closest target. Then I would have gone to the one at the cash register. I'm think the 3rd one at the door would have run, if not he would have been the last target. I would have been moving the whole time I was firing, as I didn't see anything that would have made good cover. I would therefore rely on movement to keep from getting shot myself.

    But one can sit here and say anything, you can only know for sure when sitting in the situation.

    So with that stay safe one and all
    There was a point in time when most of the patrons were on the floor. This would have been the time to take them on, rifle first if you were going to.
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  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdsumner View Post
    Just a quick thougth: reckon there was an 'inside man'? y'know, the guy that's been inside the place before and scoped it out prior for a couple of hours? The guy that may severely muck up your 'surprise' by having one of his own? Like I said, just a bit of reality for the 3:1 scenario. May be 4:1, or worse.

    dan
    Well then he would have called off the robbery at least until My girlfriend and I OCing left the building...

    Also as others have stated I'm not giving the BG my trust and letting them have free rein on my life.
    This video will be used as a training aid and a sit down conversation with the Family and Girlfriend as to who to take out first. (in this senario it would have been the guy with the shotgun/carbine then the Pistol guy). of course at that point we can charge the unarmed man with felony murder since his too friends are dead or will be shortly.

    Have to do it at the correct time to. I'm usually with another person who is armed (99%) of the time. so it would have been 3:2 ratio but really it would be 2:2 since the third guys didn't appear to be armed.

    lastly my life is worth fighting for and I'm not going to wait for them to start shooting because here in Detroit it is like a game to them. "Rob the people then shoot even after we have your money"
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  13. #58
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I have been keeping up on the post here. Something just came to me that I'm wondering about and I have a question or two.

    I'm not posting these question to put anyone down ONLY to bring thought to ones mind!

    For those who have posted they or anyone else should not engage because there are to many people about. When and where can you engage in a fire fight that there is not others around? There is always that someone across the street, the car driving by or the house with someone in it down the street. Anytime you fire your gun there is a risk of not seeing everything in your bullets path and then there is always the shoot through. Yes we need to pick the time and place to act and this is one reason I feel maybe you should act here and not let them pick the time to start shooting.

    Once they come in a make this a robbery of the whole place not just the cash register. What is any different than being robbed on the street or the parking lot. They have made it personal with you not just someone else. They are taking YOUR money and POINTING their gun in YOUR face. What are you going to do about it? Myself I don't like such things done to me and usally try to stop them.

    For those who say they are not trained to act in a situation such as this. Why aren't you? Only you can train to be the best you can be. The BG is not going up against anyone they feel can bet them at anytime. So why aren't you prepared for the worst event that can happen to you in your lifestyle and area? We can all use more training but we need to be the best we can at the time.

    Then there is the thing about my gun is not adequate for these kind of fight. Why are you carrying it then? Again only you can be prepared to what comes your way. Yes there are times when you can not conceal the gun you would like and this may be one of those times. If so you are stuck in a hard place, but if your normal carry is an inadequate piece for distance shooting or numbers of engagement then. Why carry it?

    I carry XD sub-compacts usually with 18 +1 rounds with 16 round mags for back up, should buy two more 18 rounders. When I can not conceal the 18 rounds mags I carry them with 13 +1 and if I need more concealment I go to a pocket carried 5 shot subbie with one reload. And yes I feel under-guned big time when doing so. I feel one should carry a fighting gun not a belly gun because most of the time one uses a gun it will be in a fight for your life and I don't like getting any closer to the fight than needed. If I liked to be close I would always use my knife.

    Just somethings that came to mind I am not picking anyone out, THIS IS NOT ABOUT YOU. Sometimes my posting skills SUCK
    Last edited by Bill MO; May 15th, 2011 at 10:13 PM.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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  14. #59
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Bill,

    While the likelihood of some quantity of others being in some proximity when you perceive the need for lethal action is significant, there is potentially a great deal of variation possible in both the potential number and proximity of those others. Different people have different levels of both the number and proximity of those others that they are comfortable with when initiating lethal action.

    The level of personal indignation that people feel when the victim of criminal activity also varies by individual. This runs the gamut from severe to nonexistent. This includes those that are more pragmatic and are only interested in exiting the situation in the best condition that they are able, given their tools and attributes.

    Not everyone is trained, able or desirous of abilities to confront "any" situation. They desire a level of capability relative to what they perceive as the most likely threat level that they will encounter, given the various details of their life. They have no desire to be "elite", just "adequate".

    The answer to this, as the points above, is shown in the various levels of weaponry, from those who have none in the house, to those of the "carry everywhere" mentality. It reflects their overall perception of their personal needs.

    Whether 18 rounds with two extra mags of 5 rounds with no reloads is merely another tooth on the same gear.

    Personal perceptions, philosophies, moral positions will largely effect the level of preparations made in preparation for deadly encounters. In the end, if the decisions made in that regard have served the individual well in their life, it is difficult to criticize their choices.

    To each his own.
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  15. #60
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    For those who are talking about seeing them coming in, why not grab your phone, dial 911 while they're still coming in. . . say "shooter coming into waffle house at (location) and put the phone under your napkin, still on. The faster LE can get there, the more likely they get captured, a plus for everyone.
    It is a matter of time. The national standard is that 9-1-1 calls are to be answered in under ten seconds. Unfortunately that is an average. And that is after the call rings in to the answering point. That means basically for every five that get answered immediately when they ring in you you can have one call that waits for a full minute. You have to get your phone, dial it, hit send, and wait for your network to properly route it to the proper PSAP. Many PSAPs have automatic call distribution systems and some have automated answering. The operator gets two beeps in their ear and then a recording of their voice plays " Thus and such 9-1-1 what is your emergency?" After that the operator can hear what you are saying. And this is assuming there is actually an operator in "available" status when your call rings in. If you call during a busy time you might get " Thus and such 9-1-1, do not hang up your phone. Your call will be answered by the next available operator. Stay on the line."
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