Right move or dumb move? Video attached

This is a discussion on Right move or dumb move? Video attached within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I posted this in another thread to prove a point, but I want the group to weigh in on this video. I think it was ...

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Thread: Right move or dumb move? Video attached

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    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Right move or dumb move? Video attached

    I posted this in another thread to prove a point, but I want the group to weigh in on this video. I think it was reckless use of a concealed handgun.

    Let's armchair QB this one.


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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Thunder71's Avatar
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    I think the woman with the kid was an idiot... just stood there, do dee do.

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Risky with a woman and child there, but who is to say that man wasn't going to kill someone? Sometimes compliance isn't the answer.... I can't believe that woman with child didn't try to take cover. He cleared the weapon from the holster, got a clean shot, and the perp went down. Could have went a hundred different ways but it worked out for him.

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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    I think the responses of those from the thread about the Waffle House robbery would be a good indication of where people stand on this issue. There are those who would open fire with no concern whatseover for the safety of others nearby. There are those who would not open fire unless the situation had turned so dire that it became the survival of organism response. And the spectrum in between is filled.

    I, for one, don't blame the overweight lady carrying a baby for not doing some mind reading, split second ninja roll with child and getting out of the way of the shooter and robber. I suppose the shooter also gave no thought to the sound of the gun going off multiple times just inches from a child's head.

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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    On the strength of what we see in the video I am not prepared to armchair quarterback the clerk's actions. What is true is that nothing succeeds like success and this clerk succeeded. A tragic failure here might have had us judging his actions less than favorably. It would seem that he does have a very adequate skill level for the task.

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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I think the responses of those from the thread about the Waffle House robbery would be a good indication of where people stand on this issue. There are those who would open fire with no concern whatseover for the safety of others nearby. There are those who would not open fire unless the situation had turned so dire that it became the survival of organism response. And the spectrum in between is filled.

    I, for one, don't blame the overweight lady carrying a baby for not doing some mind reading, split second ninja roll with child and getting out of the way of the shooter and robber. I suppose the shooter also gave no thought to the sound of the gun going off multiple times just inches from a child's head.
    It is amazing to me, how a seemingly intelligent person, who professes to have "pulled a gun on several thousand people" (see post in Waffle House scenario), must use sarcasm and derisive comments, to answer a post or in particular a scenario, posted for analysis, learning, and education of like minded folks on this forum. What contribution to the OP did you make by using the "overweight lady carrying a baby for not doing some mind reading, split second ninja roll" comment? Or just because your response might have differed from the clerk in the video, why use your sarcastic "gun going off multiple times just inches from a child's head" remark? In both the Waffle House scenario, AND this OP, I have yet to see you post what YOUR response would have been and why. Please enlighten us based on your "thousands" of pulling a gun experiences and lessons learned from them. I for one would appreciate being able to draw upon your VAST experience, especially since I try to learn daily by reading and evaluating experiences of others, as well as my own actual life lessons.

    As for the OP...it does appear the clerk had some training, some understanding as to how he would react given the "armed robbery" scenario, and made his decision to ACT and not depend on the goodness of the BG not to hurt the lady with the child, his coworker, or himself in the process of armed robbery. His draw was covert, his pushing his coworker out of the way was a split second good move, and his sidestep to give himself a clear shooting lane was most likely the result of training and thinking about what his reaction would be IF put into the existing situation. When the adrenaline begins to flow, you make the best choices available for survival and to WIN the fight. It worked for him and I would hope I could/would have done as well. JMO
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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by First Sgt View Post
    What contribution to the OP did you make by using the "overweight lady carrying a baby for not doing some mind reading, split second ninja roll" comment?
    I think it's a very practical contribution. To me that is a reality of the laws of physics. People carrying a lot of weight, and a child as well, don't move as nimbly as an athlete who has neither going against him. One of the four firearms safety rules is be sure of your backstop. It's not your backstop needs to be sure of you.

    "gun going off multiple times just inches from a child's head" remark?
    Another simple reality based fact. A gun going off inside an enclosed area can be quite loud. A gun going off inches from a young child's ear probably left that child with ringing ears for a week. At least. And that's if the child doesn't still have ringing in it's ear.

    Bad guy fires first. Yuk. See man clerk flinch. Thug shot missed both ladyclerk and manclerk - lucky.
    The above is from a poster who apparently pulled his post. But I think it makes the point quite clearly that although you may be well in control of your actions, you may have very little control over those of your adversary. That scenario could have just as easily turned out into one where one of the dirtbag's bullets flew into the head of one of the women or child also present in that room. Just call me the Devil's Advocate.

    Please enlighten us based on your "thousands" of pulling a gun experiences and lessons learned from them.
    Well let's see, since you asked. The one that comes most to mind is that carrying a gun is serious business. It empowers you, but it also requires you to have a cool head. People who are constantly afraid of death or the boogeyman around every corner, probably shouldn't carry a gun.

    ETA: The clerk did an outstanding job (other than planting himself and waiting a little long to fire...JMHO). But everybody needs to be able to act within their skill sets and limitations, and the wizardry that one person can do may not be the wizardry that everybody can do. It's not uncommon in these robbery videos for shots fired to not hit. That means a bullet went flying somewhere. You are responsible for every single bullet you fire. There will be little in the way of forgiveness what your intentions may be. As I have seen eloquently stated, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." If you have game like this clerk did, then maybe it will work out for you. If you don't, maybe it won't work out well for you.
    Last edited by Chad Rogers; May 18th, 2011 at 01:04 PM. Reason: Final positioning of comments and overall clean up

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Okay, here is my armchair opinion. Keep in mind we are watching this from a different angle than the clerk is seeing. It looks to me, like there was plenty of room from his line of sight to the bad guy. I must admit being surprised that the woman with the child just stood there and did nothing. But then I've heard that sometimes people freeze under stressful conditions and maybe that is what she did. Still, think he had plenty of space. Much of it also probably had to do with his skill as a shooter. After all, he only shot 3 times and all 3 rounds hit the bad guy. I'm not sure I would be as accurate in such a tense situation. He obviously knew his skill and what he was comfortable shooting next to. Also, I'm not 100% sure the bad guy could see him draw. If you look at the line of sight between the clerk and the bad guy, I think the co-worker was in between during the time he drew his weapon. I know the annotations on the youtube video says "the bad guy can see him" but I think they meant to write "can't see him".

    All in all, I'd say it was a risk either way. And as we all know, when somebody comes into a place pointing a gun there are no guarantees they won't kill you when it is over just to get rid of witnesses. So in most cases, I'd rather take my chances with defense than with being a sheep.
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    Member Array dynamo55b's Avatar
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    Good shot(s)

    Close call, but he did the right thing. I'm sure the childs safety was a factor in deciding when to shoot.
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    VIP Member Array sgb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    I think it was reckless use of a concealed handgun.
    You're wrong.
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  12. #11
    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    I think given the video the male clerk did just fine! Everyone is still alive, the BG is on the ground and no longer a threat. That's the whole idea of self-defense.
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    VIP Member Array First Sgt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    I think it's a very practical contribution. To me that is a reality of the laws of physics. People carrying a lot of weight, and a child as well, don't move as nimbly as an athlete who has neither going against him. One of the four firearms safety rules is be sure of your backstop. It's not your backstop needs to be sure of you.

    My point is, none of us can control the physical attributes of any unsuspecting/unwilling participants in this type of scenario. Sometimes, there are those of us that are unable to control their own physical condition, based on circumstances. So what purpose did it serve to make a condescending remark as to the woman's physical appearance? Perhaps you would have been better off pointing out that some folks freeze under life threatening or stressful situations, as another poster on this thread pointed out. Again, I'm sure you've observed this "freezing" when you drew on one or two of those thousands of individuals! What did those individuals do that froze? In those thousands of times drawing on individuals, did ANY of the thousands decide they weren't going to comply to your desires?
    What happened? Feel free to tell of your experiences!! Do you see how sarcastic and condescending remarks add nothing to the conversation? ... As for the four firearm safety rules, I was taught to "KNOW YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND". In the OP's original post, my "target" would have been the BG. Sometimes in a life threatening situation we can't control "what is beyond IF we miss our shot. In this circumstance, the Good Guy didn't miss, therefore the target and the backstop was one and the same. So I ask again, of what purpose was your "backstop" comment in objectively evaluating the scenario as the OP requested.




    Another simple reality based fact. A gun going off inside an enclosed area can be quite loud. A gun going off inches from a young child's ear probably left that child with ringing ears for a week. At least. And that's if the child doesn't still have ringing in it's ear.

    I totally agree with your observation concerning the loudness of the gunshots. Now out of curiosity, why didn't you take it one step further and comment on the results of ACTION on the Good Guy's part vs the results of INACTION and the potential of the young child not making it through the armed robbery with his life instead of ringing of the ears. Just sayin...





    Well let's see, since you asked. The one that comes most to mind is that carrying a gun is serious business.

    Totally agree with you.

    It empowers you, but it also requires you to have a cool head.

    Again, totally agree with you.

    People who are constantly afraid of death or the boogeyman around every corner, probably shouldn't carry a gun.

    How does this statement apply to the scenario? However, I do agree that proper mindset is a necessity of carrying a weapon.



    The above is from a poster who apparently pulled his post.

    What info was pulled?

    But I think it makes the point quite clearly that although you may be well in control of your actions, you may have very little control over those of your adversary.

    Agreed.

    That scenario could have just as easily turned out into one where one of the dirtbag's bullets flew into the head of one of the women or child also present in that room.

    It certainly could have. If one could predict the outcome of life threatening situations, then they could bottle it, sell it, and never have to participate in forums of this nature again.
    Once again, I beg of you, please enlighten us (ME), based on your experience, what YOU would have done. Thanks...Be Safe!
    Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    The clerk made Combat accurate shots. Hitting the BG three times. The BG missed. It doesnt matter what anyone says or thinks at this point. He did what he had to do to win the fight.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Someone made the remark "don't do anything unless the situation turns dire" Seems to me that when someone is pointing a gun and demanding money, the only thing that turns that situation "more dire" is for them to pull a trigger. Which can be done in a fraction of a second. If the bad guys first shot hits someone, it has now turned dire, but a life is lost because you were waiting for a more dire circumstance before you acted. I think the clerk did GREAT. I can only hope and pray that if I ever faced that situation that I could do as well.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    From the angle I viewed it, it appeared that he had sufficient clearance to fire, both on the initial shot and the following shots. This was demonstrated by his accuracy and failure to hit any of the victims. The hearing factor relative to the infant is subject to interpretation relative the potential of greater injury/death due to the possible actions of the robber.

    Without the ability to see the future, speculation on possible outcomes in contrast to the actual outcome are all that is left. In this case the outcome may not have been the best possible, but it was certainly not the worst possible.
    Bubbiesdad likes this.
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