Man picks up little boy and moves him somewhere else and makes him cry...

This is a discussion on Man picks up little boy and moves him somewhere else and makes him cry... within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Pistology Sounds like the event was large enough for preventative security to be in place? Anyway, when women, a child, and the ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    Sounds like the event was large enough for preventative security to be in place? Anyway, when women, a child, and the men start at it, a clear case of 911. I wasn't there but don't know why you felt the need to escape instead of being a good witness from a secure vantage point?
    Great points. There should have been security in place - which there wasn't.

    As to what made me want to leave instead of being a good witness, you have got me on this one.

    I have always thought as leaving to be the smart thing to do when given a choice. I realize with different situations, you don't always have a choice - you have to stay per the conditions of the situation.

    I also realize, however, that as a member of society that I have a social responsibility that out weighs my desire to maintain self-preservation. If a situation put me in a Position to help someone in need even though it would put me in danger, then I would surely help. If I could keep someone from gettin killed in a robbery or something like that then I would help but in situations where there is an altercation between two hot heads then I'm not going to be motivated to intervene. I realize that you aren't telling me to intervene but to stay to be a good witness and this stands to reason. I apologize for not telling you earlier but I have a disability that prevents me from not only moving quickly like an able bodied man but from taking fast cover as well. I'm not extremely slow but have mobility issues just the same. Due to my mobility issues sometimes I have to think ahead when I'm planning my actions.

    I wasn't trying to be deceptive but didn't realize at how I was trying to compensate for my disability until you made me examine my actions more closely. Thank you for your assistance in extrapolating all of the pertinent information.

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  3. #17
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    Best solution is to call the police and let them sort it out. That is what they get paid to do.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    People argue. If you are afraid of gunfire erupting every time someone raises their voice then you should stay home more often. Sticks said it best:



    If you think there is a real threat LEAVE! Talking with one of the angry parties is only going to put you at a higher risk. Trying to de-escalate a problem that isn't yours is a sure way to get caught in the middle of it. If you really thought there was a threat then you should have scooted out the other door and vanished.
    Leaving was something I thought about and I admit that I had slight trouble in making an assessment in what I should do. I had made a commitment to be there so I wanted to honor that commitment if it was possible but if I thought my life was in imminent danger then I would have left, etc.

    I also thought about calling the police but didn't do this as well.

    From the way things were happening I wasn't fully convinced that I should have done anything and I'm grateful that nothing bad happened. At the same time, however, I don't know what I don't know so there could have been at the very least the possibility of a gun being present.

    The reason I posted this was to weigh out different contingencies so that we can all benefit from the experiences of others. I agree that I shouldn't be a busy body and at the time when I did what I did, I didn't think I was being one. In hind site I regret of having said anything about anything to anyone at the event. To put matters in better perspective, I didn't make my comments in the heat of the confrontation but after they had seperated and was brewing over it all. I see now that my comments didn't do any good and could have involved me in an argument that I didn't want any part of.

    To say that I'm nervous of gun play any time someone raises their voice and perhaps should consider staying home more often is not an accurate assessment IMO. I do, however, try to avoid places where there is an increased possibility of trouble taking place; I.e. Bars, ball games playing for a championship, bad neighborhoods, etc. In spite of the precautions I try to take, I realize that there are always going to be unknown variables. That's life and there's nothing I can do about that so I try to assess matters to the best of my ability and I don't always do a good job of it.

    From my assessment, the women appeared to be involved in a matter that was escalating and this is where my concern lied initially. I think that there needs to be a balance between using precaution and the stance that assumes nothing is going to happen so don't worry, be happy. I'm still learning so maybe I need to lighten up?

    Maybe. ;-)

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Like some others said call 911,If you are carrying and things go South and you end up using deadly force to defend yourself,The Questions will be WHY WERE YOU THERE?WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL 911 ETC. Just cause we carry doesn't make us problem solvers,If you watch encounters LEO are involved in there are many encounters LEO's are turned on and attacked during heated arguments
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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Like some others said call 911,If you are carrying and things go South and you end up using deadly force to defend yourself,The Questions will be WHY WERE YOU THERE?WHY DIDN'T YOU CALL 911 ETC. Just cause we carry doesn't make us problem solvers,If you watch encounters LEO are involved in there are many encounters LEO's are turned on and attacked during heated arguments
    I agree. I should have called 911. Even though I wasn't directly involved in this altercation, if things had escalated and I had to defend myself, not calling when I had a chance would've been something held against me if I had to go to trial.

    I did have my gun on me but I wasn't really envisioning a scenario where I would have to use it. I was more concerned about the limited information that I had at my disposal. I didn't really think anyone had a gun but at the same time I couldn't absolutely rule it out either. If given a choice, I would have rather left and avoided an altercation than to fight it out like John Wayne. I also realize that by having a gun in of itself, it is not a guarantee that I wouldn't have been hit by a stray bullet if a gun was suddenly used. From what I have seen from a variety of sources, most altercations that involve a BG shooting at someone - they miss. BGs very often do not hit at what they're aiming at but that doesn't mean they won't hit me when they miss they're intended target, etc.

    Now let's also please consider this; there's no real guarantee that everything will be hunky dunky dory if I leave either because now I have a whole situation I have absolutely no information about, i.e., a parking lot with unknown dramas that could've been playing out unbeknownst to me. I could have been jumping out of the pan into the fryer.

    I know a lot of people are saying to hide behind cover but there really wasn't any real cover around that would've been accessible to me in an expedient fashion. I've seen on "Personal Defense" where bullets easily go through car doors so I don't doubt that they could easily penetrate the $100 fold up tables used in churches, bingo halls, school events, etc.

    In my mind I've been treating a 911 call and the decision to leave as an either or choice and really there's no reason as to why I couldn't have done both.

    Overall, I'm grateful that it all played out and no one was hurt but it has given me some things to think about. I will in the future call 911 if something seems to be going in a bad direction. If it's a harmless argument and I'm being a paranoid person that should consider staying home instead of going out then there's no real foul. LEO will handle the matter and dismiss it if I over-reacted or they will take action and act accordingly under their assessment of the situation.

    Thank you everyone for your input concerning this matter. I didn't mean to blow anything out of proportion and apologize if I did.

    God bless,
    DCG

  7. #21
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    Domestic arguments....a cop's most dangerous situation.

    I'd steer clear. If I saw real likelihood of violence, I'd call 911.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    ...
    Thank you everyone for your input concerning this matter. I didn't mean to blow anything out of proportion and apologize if I did....
    Don't apologize. You did nothing wrong. You did ask potentially 5k people their opinion on the matter, and you got it.

    That is what this forum is for. Tossing in ideas for feedback.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  9. #23
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    Good reply Sticks. In the heat of writing replies we sometimes are not exactly "tame" in our reply. It is the content of the reply and not the tone of the reply that should be looked at to get a feel for other's opinions, which can be helpful even if they are a bit callous at times. When some of us become "personal", it gets to be a bit much but for the most part the replies are interesting and informative and you should always be looking at it that way.
    Spidey2011 and DefConGun like this.

  10. #24
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    I don't believe security needs to be in place at every event. When you involve kids or peoples money your going to have confrontation thats life. The parents sound not real responsible in the first place and I'm guessing he was bugging a vendor. Sounds like a non event and our school basketball and football games get ore heated than that.

    I'd just grab some popcorn and start taken bets on who I'd thought could whip who.

  11. #25
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    A lot going on, just in the thread. The OP has my sympathy in wanting to leave for the disgust in our fellow humans and a sense of better places to be if not for security as the information available to him unfolds.
    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    Typically I am not comfortable in large crowds.
    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    I have always thought as leaving to be the smart thing to do when given a choice. I realize with different situations, you don't always have a choice - you have to stay per the conditions of the situation....

    I realize that you aren't telling me to intervene but to stay to be a good witness and this stands to reason. I apologize for not telling you earlier but I have a disability that prevents me from not only moving quickly like an able bodied man but from taking fast cover as well. I'm not extremely slow but have mobility issues just the same. Due to my mobility issues sometimes I have to think ahead when I'm planning my actions.

    I wasn't trying to be deceptive but didn't realize at how I was trying to compensate for my disability until you made me examine my actions more closely. Thank you for your assistance in extrapolating all of the pertinent information.
    I hope to keep as objective and as open a mind on my actions as you seem to do. You are helping yourself far more than I ever could.

    That explains your statement about being "comfortable in large crowds". No expertise here for "telling" you anything. Certainly I understand that you weren't finding a secure place with a bare room except for tables around the walls and most people exposed in the center (as I imagine it).

    Again, I admire your reasoning around corners. If it does you no good, at least it does you no ill.

    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    I should have called 911. Even though I wasn't directly involved in this altercation, if things had escalated and I had to defend myself, not calling when I had a chance would've been something held against me if I had to go to trial.

    I did have my gun on me but I wasn't really envisioning a scenario where I would have to use it....

    I know a lot of people are saying to hide behind cover but there really wasn't any real cover around that would've been accessible to me in an expedient fashion. I've seen on "Personal Defense" where bullets easily go through car doors so I don't doubt that they could easily penetrate the $100 fold up tables used in churches, bingo halls, school events, etc.

    In my mind I've been treating a 911 call and the decision to leave as an either or choice and really there's no reason as to why I couldn't have done both.

    ....I will in the future call 911 if something seems to be going in a bad direction. If it's a harmless argument and I'm being a paranoid person that should consider staying home instead of going out then there's no real foul. LEO will handle the matter and dismiss it if I over-reacted or they will take action and act accordingly under their assessment of the situation.

    Thank you everyone for your input concerning this matter. I didn't mean to blow anything out of proportion and apologize if I did.

    God bless,
    DCG
    Only thing about calling and leaving is that the cops want to talk to the caller. But they can see for themselves if there's anything to see.

    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyColby View Post
    I don't believe security needs to be in place at every event. When you involve kids or peoples money your going to have confrontation thats life. The parents sound not real responsible in the first place and I'm guessing he was bugging a vendor. Sounds like a non event and our school basketball and football games get ore heated than that.

    I'd just grab some popcorn and start taken bets on who I'd thought could whip who.
    Cowboy has a good perspective. It's good that the OP considers different scenarios both where he is and where he might go (outside the event or even in the courtroom). But, you can look before you leap (into that potential fire). I mean when you've gotta go, you've gotta go. Again, I appreciate that the OP has mobility issues. Better to have an active and objective mind than a false sense of security.

    Speaking of false security - it sounds like calling the local cops is a better choice than a rent-a-cop who doesn't have the same social standards or responsibilities.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  12. #26
    Member Array russ1986's Avatar
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    i would say both parties are wrong in this matter. The guy shouldn't of moved her kid. that can get him in to a lot of trouble with an assault on a minor charge. how ever if the parents would of been watching her son like she is suppose to be doing instead of letting an eight year old with a neck injury run a muck. then maybe the whole situation would not of happened.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    Sounds as though anyone leaving an 8 yr. old child unattended at an event like that, is the same kind of idiot who would want heads to roll, when someone is getting distracted by their kid, and doesn't know what else to do, but move the child out of their way.
    mother and her family sound like dummies from the word go.
    Glad it ended ok, and the kid wasn't really harmed.
    These are just the kind of events where predators stalk kids.
    Just like vacations. Just because you're there to have a good time, doesn't mean everyone is.
    ..ought to have the police called on them. Why would you let your 8 year old pester strangers outside while your inside?
    Should the guy have picked the kid up, depends, was he removing him from a dangerous situation? Was he moving him to prevent him from getting in the way of adult transactions that the kid was preventing?
    Sounds like if the parents had been doing their job, this would have been a non-issue.

  14. #28
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    ^ all of the above post.

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    ..ought to have the police called on them. Why would you let your 8 year old pester strangers outside while your inside?
    Should the guy have picked the kid up, depends, was he removing him from a dangerous situation? Was he moving him to prevent him from getting in the way of adult transactions that the kid was preventing?
    Sounds like if the parents had been doing their job, this would have been a non-issue.
    Agree mostly....but if the latter (transactions) was the case, then the guy is 100% wrong.

    "Excuse me, why did you move/touch my child?"
    "He almost got trampled"
    "Cool, thx...I was an idiot for not seeing it myself, much appreciated"
    **insert possible purchase at booth here**

    "Excuse me, why did you move/touch my child?"
    "He was in the way"
    **punch**

    I also agree that the parents lack responsibility in this scenario. 12/13 y/o....sure, let them start growing up....but an 8 y/o doesn't have the maturity, wit, nor responsibility to be left alone...ever.
    "Sir, could you please not bleed so much? I have to clean the store after they haul you off and I'd like the rest of my shift, to be, like, you know, better."

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