Do you shoot the robber if he has a toy gun??
This is a discussion on Do you shoot the robber if he has a toy gun?? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This sort of hits home. When i was in highschool, some classmates of mine went into the local 7/11 with water-guns and "robbed" the store. ...
June 3rd, 2011 11:05 AM
This sort of hits home. When i was in highschool, some classmates of mine went into the local 7/11 with water-guns and "robbed" the store. They were actually playing around, had no intention of robbing the store, and their guns were the clear plastic type, full of water, with an orange muzzle. Sort of hard to mistake for the real thing. Unfortunately, the police showed up at their houses later and arrested them. Apparently the clerk was not amused and neither were the police.
Still, as to the original poster. No. I would not shoot the man if I knew for a fact that it was a toy gun. Now, that depends on what you mean by "toy." There are some BB guns that can do serious damage, possibly blind, or even kill somebody if placement is just right. So if it is a BB gun, then I might be tempted to shoot if I thought I was in danger of being shot with something like that. If it were an airsoft gun or a cap gun or something like that, no. I would most likely use some of the moves I learned in Aikido class to simply take the gun away from him. If he had a backup weapon, like a knife or something, I'd draw my gun at that point.
June 3rd, 2011 11:05 AM
June 3rd, 2011 11:10 AM
If it looked authentic, Absolutely. I don't see much of a difference they are still trying to rob me. I'd prefer to shoot even if the gun was bight orange, but I'd be scared of prosecution. In regards to mentioning I knew it was a toy. I would tell my lawyer and take it from there.
June 3rd, 2011 11:12 AM
There seems to be a possibly dangerous assumption here. What is that assumption you might ask? That assumption is that a recognizable "TOY" gun is not dangerous. I say this as I have seen otherwise. I grew up in Baltimore in the 80's and early 90's. At one point folks were being held up with "TOY" guns. Those "TOY" guns were basic water pistols, but they were filled with things like bleach, urine, acid, etc... How much of a "TOY" is that "TOY" gun now?
I'm just saying don't make such assumptions or take everything at face value. If engaged by someone with what may or may not be a toy I'm treating it as a legitimate threat. Granted you have to take things into perspective. If it's some kid tagging along behind mom with a toy gun in the grocery store, clearly you don't want to open up on the little "squirt"...
"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
-The Mist (2007)
June 3rd, 2011 11:15 AM
"If I was an extremist, our founding fathers would all be extremists," he said. "Without them, we wouldn't have our independence. We'd be a disarmed British system of feudal subjectivity."
June 3rd, 2011 11:22 AM
This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.
June 3rd, 2011 11:25 AM
Honestly, I'm not sure I would wait long enough to recognize it as a toy gun. But to answer your question, if I was positive it was a toy, I wouldn't draw. I agree with "NC Bullseye" I would give him a good taste of Fox Labs 5.3 WOOOHOOO-HOT
If stupidity has no consequences no lesson can be learned from it.
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it".
June 3rd, 2011 11:54 AM
In Texas whether it is armed robbery or not doesn't matter, so if you know it is a toy gun or not really doesn't come into play regarding the legal justification for the act of using deadly force during a robbery.
The statutes even go on to say that it is reasonable justification under the law if it falls under (a)(2)(b)
PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A
person is justified in using deadly force against another:
(1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other
under Section 9.31; and
(2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the
deadly force is immediately necessary:
(A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use
of unlawful deadly force; or
(B) to prevent the other's imminent commission of aggravated
kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery,
or aggravated robbery.
So would I just start putting rounds into the guy. Probably not. Would it be legal for me to do so, yep. I would at least give him the chance to remain very still and lay on the ground and wait for the police. The problem with my financial institution is that if I am waiting for a teller to become available, I am between this guy and the door for him to leave.
(b) The actor's belief under Subsection (a)(2) that the deadly force
was immediately necessary as described by that subdivision is
presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
(C) was committing or attempting to commit an offense
described by Subsection (a)(2)(B);
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
June 3rd, 2011 12:01 PM
The premise of this scenario is the fact that it's a toy gun and you know it's a toy gun. The premise of the scenario leaves no wiggle room on that and is unequivocal. And based on that knowledge, would you shoot someone.
We all know the realistic chance of knowing something like that in the real world, and in the heat of the moment. I'm certainly not going to bet my life on it, and I don't think anyone would. Although we all know there are those who are gutsy enough to act in the face of a real gun. But none of these factors are part of this scenario.
The premise of this scenario is it's a fake gun and you are absolutely 100% certain it's a fake gun with no wiggle room. The original poster should have gone so far as stating that YOU are the one who gave the robber the toy gun. I believe his whole point in this scenario is basically wanting to know if you would shoot him knowing it's a toy gun based on the fact that everyone else believes it's a real gun and you would basically get a free pass. He's asking everyone a moral question.
And my answer is of course, I Would Not Shoot Him! That would clearly be an execution and murder on a moral level even if you knew the authorities would not prosecute you. That's not the kind of person I am. Whether other people believe in God or not, I know I have to answer to a higher authority one day.
However, based on the scenario as stated, and that is I know it's a toy gun, I'm going to intervene as a civic duty and responsible person. And a big reason I would respond is because I do carry less lethal options. I do carry OC spray about 90% of the time, and OC spray is a perfect tool to use against a non-lethal threat. But no, I'm not going to murder the guy.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
June 3rd, 2011 12:08 PM
Ever see what a super soaker loaded with battery acid can do?
He has put himself in a position where he may encounter deadly force. Am I to assume that he is irrational and voluntarily created that situation and entered into it without taking steps to ensure his own safety?
What is it they say about underestimating your opponent?
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
June 3rd, 2011 12:23 PM
I'm thinking that's a pretty small chance to zero-in on a 'weapon' & be able to determine that it's a toy - but in this case, the OC spray is getting used. May as well have some (ahem) fun.
"Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)
June 3rd, 2011 12:29 PM
June 3rd, 2011 12:40 PM
That's why my BUG is a Nerf Gun.
Or a supersoaker
June 3rd, 2011 01:15 PM
I am not a hero, a cop or a mall ninja. I am not willing to bet my life or anyone's life on the chance it might be a toy gun. My hand would remain in my pocket or near my IWB and I would try to get a good description of the perp without making obvious eye contact. I would try to be a good witness after the police came. If I felt personally in imminent mortal danger or anyone in my family was threatened, I pray my draw was quick, my aim sure and my gun went bang until the threat was neutralized or I ran out of bullets.
June 3rd, 2011 03:05 PM
Excellent point! I hadn't even thought of that.
Originally Posted by ksholder
June 3rd, 2011 03:23 PM
For those who haven't read Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's book, "On Combat," I have to suggest you pick up a copy and read it as soon as you can find the time.
Why? Well had you read it, you'd understand that in a situation such as the one we've been presented with (armed man waving what may or may not be a toy gun in an attempt to rob a bank or store), you'd likely have multiple perceptual distortions including but not limited to, diminished sound and/or intensified sound, tunnel vision, "auto pilot," heightened visual clarity, slow motion time, temporary paralysis, memory loss for parts of the event or some of your actions, dissociation, intrusive distracting thoughts, memory distortions, and/or fast motion time. These symptoms may come on as you reach high into Condition Red (heart rate of 115-145 bpm), and you may experience none of them, you may experience all of them or you may experience a random amount of them; no one really knows.
Why did I post this? Well, recognizing that a gun is fake while believing your life or someone else's life is on the line may be much more difficult than you might think, especially if you go into "high alert."
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