Do you shoot the robber if he has a toy gun?? - Page 4

Do you shoot the robber if he has a toy gun??

This is a discussion on Do you shoot the robber if he has a toy gun?? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; The premise of this scenario is the fact that it's a toy gun and you know it's a toy gun. The premise of the scenario ...

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Thread: Do you shoot the robber if he has a toy gun??

  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    The premise of this scenario is the fact that it's a toy gun and you know it's a toy gun. The premise of the scenario leaves no wiggle room on that and is unequivocal.

    i will unequivocally know it is a plastic gun when he drops it on the ground
    either cause he sees me pointing a real one at him
    and i told him to, or
    he runs away or
    cause he drops it when my real bullet misses him by a skinny--OMG, can you believe after all my years of practice that i missed my target??

    in Connectidut there are a lot, a real lot of strange laws related to guns and use of force. but in a nutshell: if someone profess to have, even without showing it, a dangerous weapon (knife, gun) you may respond with deadly force if you feel your life is being threatened.
    lots of 'kids' painted their bbl with the orange band years ago to fool people into thinking there gun was a toy. go figure.
    after a few shootings by police of kids who really had toy guns, the laws got written so as to protect the police from civil suits ( i probably do not have this right as in legal speak, just right in a 'the way it is')

    but as shooting some one is the last thing i ever want to do; given that i have not shot people who had real guns--it is very, very doubtful that i would shoot him either.
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  2. #47
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    suppose YOU know its a toy gun,but everyone else doesnt know and the BG begins to escalate the situation,say,for example ordering everyone in the bank to the floor or something,maybe grandma has a heart attack at all the excitement.Then what?
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  3. #48
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    The premise of this scenario is the fact that it's a toy gun and you know it's a toy gun. The premise of the scenario leaves no wiggle room on that and is unequivocal. And based on that knowledge, would you shoot someone.

    We all know the realistic chance of knowing something like that in the real world, and in the heat of the moment. I'm certainly not going to bet my life on it, and I don't think anyone would. Although we all know there are those who are gutsy enough to act in the face of a real gun. But none of these factors are part of this scenario.

    The premise of this scenario is it's a fake gun and you are absolutely 100% certain it's a fake gun with no wiggle room. The original poster should have gone so far as stating that YOU are the one who gave the robber the toy gun. I believe his whole point in this scenario is basically wanting to know if you would shoot him knowing it's a toy gun based on the fact that everyone else believes it's a real gun and you would basically get a free pass. He's asking everyone a moral question.

    And my answer is of course, I Would Not Shoot Him! That would clearly be an execution and murder on a moral level even if you knew the authorities would not prosecute you. That's not the kind of person I am. Whether other people believe in God or not, I know I have to answer to a higher authority one day.

    However, based on the scenario as stated, and that is I know it's a toy gun, I'm going to intervene as a civic duty and responsible person. And a big reason I would respond is because I do carry less lethal options. I do carry OC spray about 90% of the time, and OC spray is a perfect tool to use against a non-lethal threat. But no, I'm not going to murder the guy.
    I'm not trying to evade the original premise. I'm merely trying to show that just because it's a RECOGNIZABLE TOY doesn't make it any less threat than the real thing. There's no reason to assume that that nice bright orange, plastic water pistol is in any way safe by any stretch of the imagination. Someone has clearly shown intent to commit a violent crime. Why assume that that person isn't already thinking ahead as well?

    Ever seen what happens when someone is shot with a water pistol that's been filled with drain cleaner? It's not pretty and it's permanent.
    Here's just a few examples:
    Police ID 4 High Schoolers In Bleach Attack - News Story - WSB Atlanta
    Boy, 7, Hurt By Caustic Water Gun Shot - New York Daily News
    Man gets prison for acid attack | NOLA.com
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  4. #49
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    I say, "Dude, is that the Red Ryder 200 shot range model air rifle with compass in the stock? SWEEEEEEET!!!"
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    I never considered battery acid or bleach. Thanks for all the enlightening posts.

    It's still armed robbery, so I'd respect most SD reactions. I don't live in NY or CA, however.

  6. #51
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    There is one additional scenario: Knucklehead has toy gun and you draw on him in the small congested area near the cash register. BG decides he wants your very real gun and the next thing you know you're in a fight for weapon control. Now I know that you should never let anyone get within arms reach of your weapon, and that is exactly why I would go for my OC (at the most) instead of my gun or a knife. He can't and won't be a threat to me with that toy, but by exposing my weapon in a close environment, it adds to and escalates the situation. Watch him walk out the door and be a good witness for the PD...
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I'm not trying to evade the original premise. I'm merely trying to show that just because it's a RECOGNIZABLE TOY doesn't make it any less threat than the real thing. There's no reason to assume that that nice bright orange, plastic water pistol is in any way safe by any stretch of the imagination. Someone has clearly shown intent to commit a violent crime. Why assume that that person isn't already thinking ahead as well?

    Ever seen what happens when someone is shot with a water pistol that's been filled with drain cleaner? It's not pretty and it's permanent.
    Here's just a few examples:
    Police ID 4 High Schoolers In Bleach Attack - News Story - WSB Atlanta
    Boy, 7, Hurt By Caustic Water Gun Shot - New York Daily News
    Man gets prison for acid attack | NOLA.com
    Yeah, I don't disagree with you or others who share that same mindset. I absolutely feel the same way. And I too do not underestimate my adversaries. It's just in this particular post I got the distinct feeling the poster was wanting to know if you would willingly murder someone when it is clear to you it is not a "legitimate" lethal threat.

    I felt he was asking the moral question of shooting someone when you know with certainty he couldn't hurt anyone with his fake gun, and made my post based on that question. He wasn't talking about squirt guns loaded with battery acid or the like.

    In the real world, and of course, that's where we all live, I seriously doubt one would be able to tell with absolute certainty it was a toy gun, for all the reasons already cited. And of course, in real life, my response is going to be much different than what I have espoused on this "hypothetical moral" question.
    Retiredonce likes this.
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  8. #53
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    If I watched the guy buy the squirt gun at Wal-mart and watched him fill it with bottled water from the soda machines and then followed him into the bank where he then displayed it during his robbery, no, I wouldn't shoot him. Other than this scenario how can we know that his "weapon" is harmless?
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    There have been many shootings that involved fake or plastic guns. Cops shoot people that are dumb enough to do it.
    For the most part, they were considered justified shootings.

    Did you know that even implying that you are armed in a bank, is armed robbery even if you dont have a weapon? People have been convicted of armed robbery just by putting their finger in their pocket and implying that they would shoot.

    Now that we have that out of the way, would you shoot a kid that pointed a toy gun at you? If you know it is a toy gun then there is no danger associated with any action.

    On the other hand...


    Absolutley not. If I had to shoot, I would tell the cops that I feared for my life. Since I will only shoot if I fear for my life, then that statement is true.


    ^^^^^Pretty much this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


    I guess you'd have to acertain that he has no accomplices, with real hardware.
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  10. #55
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    The premise of this scenario is the fact that it's a toy gun and you know it's a toy gun. The premise of the scenario leaves no wiggle room on that and is unequivocal. And based on that knowledge, would you shoot someone.

    We all know the realistic chance of knowing something like that in the real world, and in the heat of the moment. I'm certainly not going to bet my life on it, and I don't think anyone would. Although we all know there are those who are gutsy enough to act in the face of a real gun. But none of these factors are part of this scenario.

    The premise of this scenario is it's a fake gun and you are absolutely 100% certain it's a fake gun with no wiggle room. The original poster should have gone so far as stating that YOU are the one who gave the robber the toy gun. I believe his whole point in this scenario is basically wanting to know if you would shoot him knowing it's a toy gun based on the fact that everyone else believes it's a real gun and you would basically get a free pass. He's asking everyone a moral question.

    And my answer is of course, I Would Not Shoot Him! That would clearly be an execution and murder on a moral level even if you knew the authorities would not prosecute you. That's not the kind of person I am. Whether other people believe in God or not, I know I have to answer to a higher authority one day.

    However, based on the scenario as stated, and that is I know it's a toy gun, I'm going to intervene as a civic duty and responsible person. And a big reason I would respond is because I do carry less lethal options. I do carry OC spray about 90% of the time, and OC spray is a perfect tool to use against a non-lethal threat. But no, I'm not going to murder the guy.
    Barkin' got the gist of the question i was asking. It was a moral test really.

    I understand that in a high stress situation that it may be nearly impossible to tell if the weapon the bad guy is holding is a toy or real, but assuming that you do know, for 100% sure, that it is a toy, would you, as a person, fire on the idiot? I myself would not. I would probably tell him I knew he has a toy and would not comply. All while putting my hand on my gun because as others have said, you don't know if this guy has a knife or something else. You would have to be ready to go to the gun if he pulles out a real lethal weapon.
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  11. #56
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    Stick your finger in the end of his barrel and say, "Be vewy, vewy quiet...I'm hunting wabbits" as you draw your weapon in the low ready position.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Stick your finger in the end of his barrel and say, "Be vewy, vewy quiet...I'm hunting wabbahs" as you draw your weapon in the low ready position.
    Fixed. And LOL.
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  13. #58
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    No shoot for me

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  14. #59
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    I can't find the story. But, I heard about someone being assaulted with a "squirt" gun loaded with acid. (I can't remember if it was Europe, Asia or the Middle East.) So, I would not necessarily rule out the possibility of extreme danger.

    IMHO; you can't rule out engaging an unarmed person either. You have absolutely NO idea if the individual might be a martial arts expert or MMA fighter you could quite literally KILL you with his bare hands.

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    If I'm in a position of possibly being shot, I'm not asking if the individual is just pretending or using a toy gun.
    If I see a toy gun? Hope it is REALLY a toy...but according to the law, it's a weapon. "Lord, he's coming to meet you!"
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