This murder in my town last night.

This is a discussion on This murder in my town last night. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by retsupt99 Based upon the facts of this case...Bang, Bang, Bang...Bang, Bang. You forgot one thing retsupt99... ...(insert sound of proactive reload here)......

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Thread: This murder in my town last night.

  1. #16
    Member Array Martial Archer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Based upon the facts of this case...Bang, Bang, Bang...Bang, Bang.
    You forgot one thing retsupt99...

    ...(insert sound of proactive reload here)...

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    well, for some here it gets a mite complicated---cause the sound of you charging the slide to chamber a round is going to attract his attention; followed quickly by his bullets....god help you if you jam ur gun or your 1st shot ain't true on target. which brings me back to my more serious thought of:
    all your years of practice--paper no shoot back...paper no move.

    he will be in motion the instant he becomes aware of you
    and if your 1st shot does not remove the fight from him ( him running out the door is as good, perhaps better than him falling to the ground -- from your POV
    follow up shots may be very difficult; remember you can not shoot & pray, you must know your target and whats beyond it.

    in general i carry 2 types of sd guns, those to walk the dog ( 7 yards, under 3" groups snap fire) and going to town defender or p239/40 1.5" groups at 25 yards.
    so either distance is my friend and i engage across the store or I'm forced to use a distraction such that i can get closer. or i run away. i like that the best if there are no others in the store.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
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  4. #18
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    Two things...

    1) You do not know if the clerk is dead, or merely gravely wounded. Immediate intervention in order to have any chance of saving his life is what's at stake.

    2) The BG is still armed, still in the same room as I am, and if he starts to move around the store, I may lose any advantage I would have had by firing on him directly. There is still an immediate threat to me.

    Based on both of those situations, I'm shooting the robber to; A) End the immediate threat, and B) Remove the threat so I can attempt to render aid to the clerk and get help on the way ASAP.

    I seriously doubt, I'm going to be gigged for shooting him after articulating those points. Now if he immediately fled out the door before I can shoot him, I won't follow him out just to gun him down. I will call 911 and render any aid I could to the clerk.
    guardmt, gunthorp and TSiWRX like this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    In this scenario, I need to save my own butt (as no other store customers were mentioned). I will be attempting to escape and since I've seen the attacker kill (shoot) someone, it may very well take the form of offense rather than defense.

    Edit: and no I wouldnt give a verbal warning. In my state it's not required.
    Last edited by 9MMare; June 12th, 2011 at 02:05 AM.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #20
    RKM
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    It's true, carrying a gun will not ALWAYS save you. This clerk could have had a shotgun slung on his back, and it wouldn't have saved him. Yes, we carrying for protection, but we must realize, a gun isn't everything. Just because we carry doesn't make us invincible. This was just BAD luck.

    As far as being in the back of the store, witnessing this and not being detected, maybe I'll be criticized for this, but I'd aim for a headshot at his brainsteam. Shut down him down immediately. Of course that's easy to say now, haha. Like others said, he showed no problem killing somebody, why would he not kill you? Stop him before he has the chance.

  7. #21
    Senior Member Array JDlewis's Avatar
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    I would said I would kill him because like others said you have the right to shot some one if you feel threat with your life. What I would do is get close to him with out getting notest and get my aim on him. Then get him to noted me and open fire until he's dead then said I feel threat with my life. case closed.

  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Two things...

    1) You do not know if the clerk is dead, or merely gravely wounded. Immediate intervention in order to have any chance of saving his life is what's at stake.

    2) The BG is still armed, still in the same room as I am, and if he starts to move around the store, I may lose any advantage I would have had by firing on him directly. There is still an immediate threat to me.

    Based on both of those situations, I'm shooting the robber to; A) End the immediate threat, and B) Remove the threat so I can attempt to render aid to the clerk and get help on the way ASAP.

    I seriously doubt, I'm going to be gigged for shooting him after articulating those points. Now if he immediately fled out the door before I can shoot him, I won't follow him out just to gun him down. I will call 911 and render any aid I could to the clerk.
    Absolutely nothing to add here - this is, IMHO, the complete and authoritative response to the scenario posed.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  9. #23
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    Ready, aim, stop.
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

  10. #24
    Senior Member Array The Old Anglo's Avatar
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    Also Remember most stores have cameras. I`d still take him out. Just my $.02.
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  11. #25
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    He has the ability, he has the opportunity, he just demonstrated intent. From behind cover, I would take aim, order him to drop the gun, and let the camera document his suicide by CCW.
    TSiWRX likes this.
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    Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito.
    ("Do not give in to evil but proceed ever more boldly against it.")
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  12. #26
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Verbal warning is not a good idea. Just open up till he drops.

    For those who said shoot to kill, I suggest your statement to the police is that you shot to stop the threat.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    1well, for some here it gets a mite complicated---cause the sound of you charging the slide to chamber a round is going to attract his attention; followed quickly by his bullets....god help you if you jam ur gun or your 1st shot ain't true on target....

    2he will be in motion the instant he becomes aware of you

    3and if your 1st shot does not remove the fight from him ( him running out the door is as good, perhaps better than him falling to the ground -- from your POV
    follow up shots may be very difficult; remember you can not shoot & pray, you must know your target and whats beyond it....
    1 - First off, one may want to re-think that carrying with the pipe empty. Second, since the BG just fired a round indoors, and I doubt the BG is wearing hearing protection, he would not hear you racking the slide.

    2 - Becoming aware most likely means look, identify, decide, act...definite time lag as I am betting the BG is under the impression that he is in complete control and the only one with a gun, whereas you had better be weapon in hand and coming on target.

    3 - Good point to remember.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1953 View Post
    Verbal warning is not a good idea. Just open up till he drops.

    For those who said shoot to kill, I suggest your statement to the police is that you shot to stop the threat.
    Extremely good point.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Secret Spuk's Avatar
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    OK... guy walks in and drops the clerk no conversation... no demands... just shoots him?... and he dont see me? I'd shoot him dead as soon as I could. Preferrably in the back. With no conversation... no demands.

    IMO This is not the kind of a guy you want to take any chances with.

    Spuk.
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  15. #29
    Senior Member Array ntkb's Avatar
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    Not carrying with one in the chamber is the first step to being second place in a gun fight!

    That said, the sound that may alert him is my 1911 coming out of its Kydex holster if that didn’t do it possibly the safety coming off, at any rate, if he turns to me the next thing and last thing he will see is sparks coming from the muzzle.

    In my state it will end there no lawsuit, no wasted time on criminal trial.

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    Texas allows the use of lethal force in the case of murder, attempted on myself or attempted/completed on someone else. Mulitple Portions of Section 9.

    Moreover, Texas allows the use of lethal force for aggravated robbery on a third party or myself.

    It is reasonable to conclude perp attempts to murder clerk when he shoots his gun, period. He commits aggravated robbery as well.

    Perp is two for two. How much more legal cover does a Texan need?

    Its legal for a CCH to open fire and neutralize him.

    Do it and fast to get help for the clerk. RIP


    PENAL CODE**CHAPTER 9. JUSTIFICATION EXCLUDING CRIMINAL RESPONSIBILITY


    PS: Its really sad how the son just cant believe how this could happen, how peaceful his father was, yet they own a C-Store. His father had 11 grandchildren who will miss him. :-(
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by MAINE0388 View Post
    You dont know if hes dead yet. I think at this point he needs to go down. YOU may not be in imminent danger but do we also know the store and outside is clear. I would have to assume the cashier is still alive or might have even escaped unharmed. I know that I would be ducking in cover once I hear the first shot. Im sure I wouldnt see whats going on. I know someone just walked in and fired upon another citizen so I would do my best to protect myself as well as him even if hes taken a round idk his status till its over.
    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    The pharmacist executed an incapacitated robber,This guy just committed a murder and he is a THREAT,I'm gonna move to get a shot from cover and shoot til the threat is over
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Two things...

    1) You do not know if the clerk is dead, or merely gravely wounded. Immediate intervention in order to have any chance of saving his life is what's at stake.

    2) The BG is still armed, still in the same room as I am, and if he starts to move around the store, I may lose any advantage I would have had by firing on him directly. There is still an immediate threat to me.

    Based on both of those situations, I'm shooting the robber to; A) End the immediate threat, and B) Remove the threat so I can attempt to render aid to the clerk and get help on the way ASAP.

    I seriously doubt, I'm going to be gigged for shooting him after articulating those points. Now if he immediately fled out the door before I can shoot him, I won't follow him out just to gun him down. I will call 911 and render any aid I could to the clerk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    OK... guy walks in and drops the clerk no conversation... no demands... just shoots him?... and he dont see me? I'd shoot him dead as soon as I could. Preferrably in the back. With no conversation... no demands.

    IMO This is not the kind of a guy you want to take any chances with.

    Spuk.

    All that together, and in my mind, it's clear:

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Based upon the facts of this case...Bang, Bang, Bang...Bang, Bang.
    If I were a CCW/CHL in Texas, had I been in the back of the store and witnessed the act, I would have opened fire.

    "Going to the tape" afterwards should vindicate my legal standing in TX.

    And I'll tell you what...morally, that makes me sleep a lot sounder at night than if the same scenario would have played out in my home-town.

    IF nothing else, this particular bit of very bad, very sad news highlights the obligation that we have as citizens with CHL/CCW to know the laws that govern what we must do.

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