True Story in News 6/5/11: Flash Mob in Chicago: 2 Severely Beaten & Robbed

This is a discussion on True Story in News 6/5/11: Flash Mob in Chicago: 2 Severely Beaten & Robbed within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; "If any continue to advance you keep firing / reloading till you hear a 'click' I carry 24 rounds of .45 " In Chicago those ...

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Thread: True Story in News 6/5/11: Flash Mob in Chicago: 2 Severely Beaten & Robbed

  1. #31
    cmb
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    "If any continue to advance you keep firing / reloading till you hear a 'click' I carry 24 rounds of .45"

    In Chicago those rounds can't be in a gun so I hope you throw hard, avoid Chicago like the plague, and a few other areas in the country until they come to their senses...

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by gruntingfrog View Post
    Does the race of the thugs matter to the situation? I know the individuals in the example case were black, but that doesn't change how one should react to the situation. Your statement implies that the individuals being black inherently makes them more dangerous and warrants different choices. It may not be what you intended, but it's the implication made by your statement. There are members of this forum from many races, creeds, and backgrounds.

    Let's try not to include race in our discussions of tactics unless it actually pertains to the outcome.
    and

    "I believe that he was merely using the info provided in the OP."

    I use the data provided in the OP.

    Data is data.

    White, black, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, magenta, a mellow chartreuse....

    I am colorblind to "thug".

    I hate thug.

    I admit and take full responsibility for being a Thuggist.

    Someone somewhere will consider me a hater/find it offensive for being a Thuggist.


    I appreciate/support your concern and stand against racism.

    Nothing about my post was racist or implied racism in any form

    The 15 to 20 thugs were black. Its a fact. Like their age range..what they did...etc.

    I intend to use the data OP's provide. This may or may not include the color of the perp's skin.

    I like and intend to stick with the data. It helps keep my analysis of the situation real and accurate to the facts at hand.

    Cheers
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  4. #33
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    I don't even understand why this thread has turned into a race thing, really? any chance we can keep it on topic?

    With that said you don't even want to know my opinion on the matter.

    In the words of Greg Giraldo "I'm not racist but...." "When someone says that prepare for the most racist thing you have ever heard"
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  5. #34
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    The situation of being outnumbered by a mob and actively threatened calls for an immediate show of force on your part. The hope is that your show of force will dissuade them from pursuing their aggressive threat against you. The key to dissuading them from further aggression is to be convincing that the force you present will be used without prejudice and without hesitation.

    Which means you immediately draw your weapon, take an aggressive and convincing combat posture with a solid two handed combat grip on your firearm and command that if they do not disburse, you are going to shoot the first SOB who moves towards you and anyone else you can hit in the crowd! Now here is where things get dicey.

    The mere sight of a gun often times does not intimidate a crowd of punks. More than likely you are going to get a lot of lip service, dares and taunting out of the crowd. They are gonna try to provoke you into shooting while keeping their distance. At this point, they are looking for an excuse to make it look like that you freaked out and went "Rogue" on just a bunch of innocent choirboys out trying to have a good time. They are also sizing you up trying to determine if you simply B.S.ing them or if you are prepared to shoot them down.

    I would caution you to hold your shots at this point, if they are keeping their distance and look for a way to make your retreat and continually scan your six and flank positions to ensure no one is sneaking up on you as you make your escape. It is always best to try and escape if at all possible without gunfire.

    Chances are, they will let you back away and get out of there, but they are going to be talking smack, continue to taunt you, and may even continue to cautiously advance a little, in direct proportion to what you retreat.

    I would not even consider trying to call 911 on my cell phone at this point. The situation is too dynamic for you to be distracted fumbling with your cell phone and hassle with the 911 operator playing twenty questions. You have to still constantly ensure you are not being out flanked. (However, the situation may allow you to call 911, just be aware of what's going on around you. If you have a companion with you, it would be a perfect opportunity for them to call as soon as possible.) If you do make the call, give the location, tell them you are surrounded by an angry flash mob threatening to harm you, and you have them at gunpoint. Then take the phone away from your ear but leave the line open. Don't get caught up in a lengthy conversation with dispatch and become distracted as the mob surrounds you.

    Whether you allow them to advance on you as you retreat or shoot is going to be your decision. However, if they get the impression that you are not a man of your word and that you are too afraid to shoot, you may end up with some serious problems. At this point, if you have determined who the leader is, or who seems to have the biggest mouth, you might pick him out specifically by his clothing, or some other identifying marker and reiterate you command that if anyone keeps advancing on you, he's the first one who will be shot, followed by whoever is standing next to him.

    And then, you're likely going to have to keep your word. The aftermath is going to be a huge legal mess anyway you look at it, so you're either going to have to decide, am I going to defend myself, or allow a mob to swarm me. It's going to be a matter of how convincing your war face is and how convinced they are that you are not messing around.

    It's not going to be an easy solution no matter how you look at it. But if you haven't thought through these types of scenarios before hand, you may find yourself in a no-win legal mess or seriously beat down, or beat to death.

    These "Flash Mobs" are cropping up with more and more frequency in lots of different geographical locations. They had one or two recently in Kansas City in the famous "Plaza" outdoor shopping area in midtown KC. The thugs used text messages to coordinate the event. Some had their moms drop them off in their moms car and some arrived by city bus. Several shoppers and restaurant diners were accosted, assaulted and robbed by the mob as they tried to make their way to their cars and leave the area. We had a thread or two discussing it here on this forum and it was big news on the local TV and newspapers for a couple weeks.

    You better make up your mind now, how you intend to deal with such a situation if you suddenly find yourself in the middle of a similar situation. You can't rely on your so-called flawless situational awareness alerting you with enough opportunity to avoid it. It's called a "flash mob" for a reason. They happen quickly and with little warning before you quickly realize you're right in the middle of it.
    Guantes and msgt/ret like this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #35
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    Well put, Bark'n.

    I have little to add. I would reiterate that the seriousness of your "game face" and the perceived seriousness of your intent is paramount. Relative to a leader/loudmouth, they are often one and the same. They view these activities as relatively low risk entertainment. These individuals can sometime be converted into allies. If they believe that you will shoot/kill them if it "goes down", they will often be a calming factor to the rest of the group/gang. This is strictly self interest, relative to their desire not to get shot/killed.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  7. #36
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    Legality aside, since we're assuming the person about to be accosted is in Chicago and armed (illegally), seems like bold brandishing is in order. You'll have to deal with the consequences later, need to get out of this alive and hopefully unharmed. Stakes go up to deadly instantly. I agree with others, if you look terrified and likely not to shoot, they might taunt and try to get behind you. So, drawing and taking a deliberate aim at a BG while announcing you'll shoot the first person who approaches is in order. But, you might just have to do that. I'd say 50/50 the flash mob starts to run if shots are fired, especially if they see one of their comrades go down bleeding, and almost certainly if you shoot 2-3. But, they might go running for their guns. On that note, nobody mentioned what happens if one or more are carrying. If so, the situation looks very bleak. If you fire and they retreat, you sure as heck will need to get the hell out of Dodge as well. But, you might as well turn yourself in to the police, get legal defense, and have your side of the story get told first. No matter what, life is going to suck legally, and perhaps civily, but you'll be alive.

  8. #37
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    I normally carry a 5 round J-frame. No warning shots. I'll do the same thing I did many years ago when 8 guys started to surround me as I returned from a hike - pull my gun, raise it part way, and see what happens. In that case it was a .22, but no one wanted to be first and I was able to move around them to my car. In a thug setting with 20, it would be more likely to end with a shot taken at very close range, then maybe a couple more as I start running. If running wasn't an option, I'd take as many with me as I could, but I'd have to expect to die that night.

    Of course, I carry a J-frame because I don't go to places where that is likely to happen. In a higher threat area, I'd probably carry two guns. But realistically, if they charge, you will not have time to get off 45 rounds.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12smile View Post
    What would you do here?...a Mob of 20 Youths.

    Mobs Attack 2 Men In Streeterville CBS Chicago

    CHICAGO (WBBM) – Police said at least two people were attacked by criminal “flash mobs” in the Streeterville neighborhood on Saturday night.

    The first attack happened around 8:25 p.m. Saturday when a man was attacked after parking his motor scooter near the Northwestern University campus in Streeterville.

    The man had parked on the 300 block of East Chicago Avenue across the street from Wieboldt Hall when a group of 15 to 20 men, all approximately 16 to 20 years old and black, approached him, according to an alert from the university.

    One of them threw a baseball at the victim’s face and knocked him to the ground, the alert said. Several others from the group punched and hit him several times. The victim tried to protect himself and fought back.

    I'd most likely freeze and get beaten to a pulp and never recover from the injuries.

    Or...when the group got to a certain distance I'd yell "Stop or I'll shoot" Then break all the rules and fire three spaced (Center, Left & Right) warning shots at their feet. Well it's not exactly a "Warning Shot" if it's going to hit someone...so...it's a 'diffusely aimed shot' for at least 3 of the thugs and a 'warning shot' for the others.

    If they all turn and run you have neutralized the threat with three shots and 3 wounded perps. If any continue to advance you keep firing / reloading till you hear a 'click' I carry 24 rounds of .45

    On paper I'd have one round for each thug and some to spare.

    My hunch (and someone w/ police / FBI experience could have real stats on this)...My hunch is that once a group is fired upon in a credible manner...3 shots of .45...99% of the time the mob flees...They could have video and 'battlefield' reports to base that on.

    they're amateur thugs...they want to get home to the (foodstamp) chips and the (stolen) big screen and some Lovin' w/ (meal ticket) Baby Momma.

    I'd guess the exception to the "mob fleeing rule" would be in a riot / political situation where there is a 'group purpose' (looting or a building take-over) That group may be organized or motivated enough to take casualties and overwhelm you.

    So...I think your rule of thumb would be

    A) Fire 3 shots on the Advancing Mob.
    B) Wait..to judge effect (which you'd hope would be instant)
    C) If that Fails...Fire one shot per Thug as you seek cover / retreat until ammo is gone.

    I'm 60 yrs old and can't run...I'd have to stay put and Fire.

    To Summarize: 3 shots, and If they refuse my invitation to continue living, they get a 21 round 'salute'

    I am betting that the 3 shots will turn them around.

    The key to keeping a low body count would be my Awareness in
    recognizing the pending attack from the greatest distance...in the City
    I AM "always looking over my shoulder"

    I hope the 2 victims can continue with school without losing a semester.

    Could you imagine living in Chicago where you can't protect yourself ???

    Scene of the Crime on Google Street View:
    http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sour...173.05,,0,7.26
    Wellll...it appears that I need to start carrying a spare magazine.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  10. #39
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    it's funny though that these things probably would not happen in places like TX or other castle doctrine states. Like Maverick says in topgun, such an event would be a target rich environment.

    I hope the vic is ok after the assault.
    "embrace the suck" - our warriors in the sandbox... it implies that do the best you can in impossible conditions.
    "no plan survives intact upon contact with the enemy" - wisdom of the Grunts.

  11. #40
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    Even though I have been one to suggest there exists a time and place for warning shots (although very, very rarely) I will definitely say this is not the time for one. The main two reasons is that I'm fairly certain simply drawing the gun and yelling loudly would be enough to get their attention in this situation. 2nd reason is I certainly wouldn't want to waste any ammo in the event I had to start trying to pick them off one at a time.

    If I knew their intention was violence I'd give them a loud warning with weapon drawn (and they'll see me chamber the first round). If I saw any of them reaching in their baggy pockets, I'd start shooting at those first. Then I'd keep picking off any of them that weren't running away. I would hope that would be when I'm carrying my Glock 19 since the magazine holds 15 rounds. If I had my .380 mouse gun with 6 rounds, I might be in trouble.

    I had been meaning to post about this a week ago when I saw a similar story in the news. Only the story I saw simply showed mobs of teens entering into small stores and stealing things before the owners could respond. In this case, they were not doing anything violent, simply theft for the most part. I had not seen the news story about the violent flash mobs. In the case of the non-violent mobs I'm just not sure what I'd do since they aren't giving me a reason for deadly force, but I sure hate to see them get away with that sort of thing.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Even though I have been one to suggest there exists a time and place for warning shots (although very, very rarely) I will definitely say this is not the time for one. The main two reasons is that I'm fairly certain simply drawing the gun and yelling loudly would be enough to get their attention in this situation. 2nd reason is I certainly wouldn't want to waste any ammo in the event I had to start trying to pick them off one at a time.

    If I knew their intention was violence I'd give them a loud warning with weapon drawn (and they'll see me chamber the first round). If I saw any of them reaching in their baggy pockets, I'd start shooting at those first. Then I'd keep picking off any of them that weren't running away. I would hope that would be when I'm carrying my Glock 19 since the magazine holds 15 rounds. If I had my .380 mouse gun with 6 rounds, I might be in trouble.

    I had been meaning to post about this a week ago when I saw a similar story in the news. Only the story I saw simply showed mobs of teens entering into small stores and stealing things before the owners could respond. In this case, they were not doing anything violent, simply theft for the most part. I had not seen the news story about the violent flash mobs. In the case of the non-violent mobs I'm just not sure what I'd do since they aren't giving me a reason for deadly force, but I sure hate to see them get away with that sort of thing.
    Do you think you will enjoy prison?? I mean, shooting someone who may not have a weapon?? Seek training...soon!
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  13. #42
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    SIGguy-

    Ever hear of disparity of force?????? Anyone who is not in fear of death or grievous bodily injury when beset by 20+ urban "utes" needs to have his superman complex check out by mental health professionals. I can probably find a dozen news reports of people being killed by "unarmed" groups.

    In Indiana it is codified [paraphrase] When confronted by 3 or more individuals whether armed or not a reasonable man has grounds to fear death or grievous bodily injury and is justified in resorting to deadly force[/paraphrase]

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    OR...as in my case, never step foot into the state of IL. I have gone out of my way to drive around that state instead of spending ONE DIME there.
    THIS IS THE WAY i HANDLE IT ALSO!!!!!
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    nor the arrow for its swiftness,
    nor the warrior for his glory.
    I love only that which they defend.
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    SIGguy-
    Ever hear of disparity of force?????? Anyone who is not in fear of death or grievous bodily injury when beset by 20+ urban "utes" needs to have his superman complex check out by mental health professionals. I can probably find a dozen news reports of people being killed by "unarmed" groups.
    In Indiana it is codified [paraphrase] When confronted by 3 or more individuals whether armed or not a reasonableman has grounds to fear death or grievous bodily injury and is justified in resorting to deadly force[/paraphrase]
    I sure have....I also know that shooting an unarmed person is generally frowned upon regardless of where you are. Think about it...it's you vs 20 witnesses, and he shoots the only "unarmed" guy who was walking with his friends to the soup kitchen at the church where they volunteer to teach blind kids to read. It's probably not the truth, but that is what the prosecuting attorney or the deceased " estate" will claim during a wrongful death suit.

    To sharpen my point further--don't write (insert adjective) things that can/will be used out of context--like shooting unarmed people...
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I sure have....I also know that shooting an unarmed person is generally frowned upon regardless of where you are. Think about it...it's you vs 20 witnesses, and he shoots the only "unarmed" guy who was walking with his friends to the soup kitchen at the church where they volunteer to teach blind kids to read. It's probably not the truth, but that is what the prosecuting attorney or the deceased " estate" will claim during a wrongful death suit.

    To sharpen my point further--don't write (insert adjective) things that can/will be used out of context--like shooting unarmed people...
    I agree with you SIGguy, that's gonna be a problem. I mentioned that in Post #34. However, it may come to having to shoot one or several for your own survival. Hopefully in the case of flash mobs, there will be a significant number of witnesses who can and will corroborate your side of things as a defender.

    In the recent cases of flash mobs robbing and assaulting innocent people in the famed Plaza outdoor shopping area in mid-town Kansas City, it was a big deal. Many of the shop owners and restaurant owners and employees would likely corroborate the aggressiveness and lawlessness of the mob. Several of the innocents caught up and being targeted by the mob were trying to seek refuge in any open business they could get to. Several of the restaurants would open their doors and let victims run inside and then lock the doors.

    It was a big deal in local newspapers and TV news for weeks. And the police responded with a major presence in the area for a while. If any of the victims of the beat downs, robberies and assaults had had a ccw permit and have shot several of their mob attackers, I think would have come off as a clean shoot with the obvious disparity of forces as justification. Not to mention, the physical injuries to the victims. And I think many of the business owners and locals would have spoke up and verified the danger of the mob. They either have to live there or do business there, and they don't want mobs running off their business and taking over the area.

    But anyone should know up front, it's likely going to be a legal mess and quagmire of epic proportions. But if you have to shoot, you have to shoot.

    In my post above, #34, I made it quite clear, how you handle yourself when you draw your gun, is vitally important as to the outcome. Do they believe you when you tell them you'll shoot the 1st SOB who comes closer? Have you effectively singled out the ring-leader and let him know he's gonna get-got too. Do you look like a scared rabbit in the headlights, or are you wearing your face of death and determination?

    It's gonna be a judgement call, and a bad situation now matter what. But I'm not going to let a mob surround me, beat me down, harm my wife and take my money and my car when I have a gun on my hip but I'm afraid of how it's going to look, if all of them start to claim I was a wild gunman and they were just minding their own business.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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