When would you fire warning shots? - Page 9

When would you fire warning shots?

This is a discussion on When would you fire warning shots? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Harryball 9MMare Read the above, this is what Im talking about. Mitchell hit it right on the head. No need for me ...

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Thread: When would you fire warning shots?

  1. #121
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    9MMare Read the above, this is what Im talking about. Mitchell hit it right on the head. No need for me to repeat it.
    Ok, altho I didnt see Mitchell's post applying to me in any way. (Except that I wouldnt say 'never,' obviously).
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)


  2. #122
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    I think Mitchells statement applies to anyone that would consider a warning shot. This is only my opinion, but Never sounds good to me as it pertains to warning shots.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  3. #123
    Member Array tbone1964's Avatar
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    Only warning shot you'd get from me is the one penetrating your thorasic cavity

  4. #124
    Distinguished Member Array skysoldier29's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biggie313 View Post
    Never. If you draw, be prepared to shoot. If you shoot, shoot to kill
    /Thread
    Since when is someone shooting to kill in a self defense role? I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I want to do is use deadly force. The only way I will fire a shot is if there is no other way to safely get my family and myself out of a possible fatal situation. Now in the event that I do have to fire a shot I am going to aim for the upper chest or head to ensure that I can stop the threat against my families or my life. My overall goal is not to kill someone but to enable myself to survive the encounter. The unfortunate part of using a firearm for self defense is that someone will likely either be killed or seriously injured.

  5. #125
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skysoldier29 View Post
    Since when is someone shooting to kill in a self defense role?
    I am.

    If someone is an iminent, otherwise unaviodable threat of grave bodily harm to me, and I have to put the front sight on that person, I'm trying kill them.

    Why? Because it's a justified, moral thing to do.

    Shoot to stop...whatever. The use of lethal force isn't golfing.

    It's killing when appropriate. The "shoot to stop" sugar-coating is a dismissal of the gravity of the act, and a mental contortion to get around the cold facts of the matter - If you are training seriously to protect yourself, you are training to kill someone if the situation calls for it.

    People are not targets.
    They are not steel plates.

    They are living, breathing beings. Some of who may try to kill you one day.

    You won't be faced by a faceless target - you will be faced with a person you just interacted with who used that interaction to get close to you, then shoved a gun in your face and it ON...

    And if you want to live you will take that person's life with as much fury, skill and ruthless application of everything you know.

    If you are skilled, it may be over relatively quick...or you may end up in a struggle over a gun in a pool of hydrolic fluid and broken glass...

    But that guy you are beating to death with an empty S&W J frame will still have been someone's kid, someone's father and someone's friend.

    Killing them at the time you do it may be the right thing to do...but don't dismiss the action's weight or it's importance by the mental dodge of "I'm just shooting to stop."

    Nobody buys it.

  6. #126
    Member Array Geronimo45's Avatar
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    Only in a Whammy-Burger.

  7. #127
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post

    If you are training seriously to protect yourself, you are training to kill someone if the situation calls for it.

    .
    Yup, but the second that the attacker(s) in 'the situation' stop trying to kill me, then I stop trying to kill them. I dont finish 'the job.' If they stop, I stop. That single element controls whether it's 'called for.' Hence, a more accurate description for my personal strategy for self-defense, no matter what my weapon.

    Personally, at this point it seems like semantics to me....it's the legal aspects that will count in the end if a shooting ever happens (and an awful lot of the legal trade seems based on semantics).
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #128
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    I'm down to my last minuteman missile; i cant afford to miss nor can i afford the Calis much longer
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  9. #129
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Yup, but the second that the attacker(s) in 'the situation' stop trying to kill me, then I stop trying to kill them. I dont finish 'the job.' If they stop, I stop. That single element controls whether it's 'called for.' ...
    Have you any idea what the speed of life is in a violent encounter?

    Once you are in the physical stage, it's extremely short. In fact, Force Science Research has shown that once you have made the decision to shoot, you likely can't observe and react to a surrender or change in circumstances before you have fired.

    The idea of "If he stops, I'll stop" has not worked in training under scientific conditions moving at speed.

    http://www.forcescience.org/articles...hronometry.pdf

    A corollary to the plain implications of the time measurements is the difficulty an officer
    (or any human being) has in “turning off” a reactionary decision made in the moment. In a
    shooting situation, once an officer decides to shoot at a suspect in response to some threatening
    stimulus, it is nearly impossible to abort that decision
    (21-22, 24-25). In fact in over 600 examined
    cases of officer shooting decisions during a 7-year period, only one officer was identified
    who was able to keep himself from firing at a suspect who had already been deemed a threat
    and the decision to shoot had already been made (21).

    Methodology and Results
    The present study is a compilation of 4 separate experiments conducted with officers of
    a large police department in the Southwestern United States. The experiments sought to measure
    the following:
    Experiment #1: Reaction time to a visual stimulus
    Experiment #2: Time it takes to stop pulling the trigger
    Experiment #3: Simple decision-making
    Experiment #4: The role of anticipation
    A total of 102 police officers were utilized in each of the four experiments. The officers’ participation
    in the experiments was voluntary.
    Experiment #1: Reaction Time to a Visual Stimulus
    Experiment #1 involved the use of a stimulus board that was placed in front of each participating
    officer. The stimulus board was a 10”x 10” square and displayed a pattern of clusters
    of light on the face of it. There were 9 clusters of lights on the square board (3 rows containing
    3 clusters each) and each cluster contained 3 LED indicators. While viewing the board, officers
    were asked to grip a modified Glock training pistol. The Glock was fitted with an electronic
    device to capture trigger-pull data and record it in a computer. Officers were instructed to observe
    the light clusters in the upper left quadrant of the stimulus board. They were told to pull
    the trigger once, as quickly as possible, when a particular green light was illuminated.
    The average trigger pull reaction for the 102 participating officers, upon viewing the
    green light, was 0.31 seconds. Broken down further, it took an average of 0.25 seconds to mentally
    process that the light was on and decide to pull the trigger; it took 0.06 seconds mechanically
    pull the trigger.
    Experiment #2: The Time it takes to Stop Pulling the Trigger
    Officers in this phase of the study were instructed that the researcher was measuring the
    officer’s ability to pull the trigger rapidly. The officer was asked to repeatedly pull the trigger
    as quickly as possible when the light on the stimulus board came on. However, they were also
    instructed to stop pulling the trigger immediately upon the light going off. In fact, they were
    misinformed that any extra trigger pulls after the light stopped illuminating would count against
    their overall score. As such, this experiment modestly added the elements of on-going attention
    and motivation.
    On average, participating officers stopped pulling the trigger within 0.35 seconds from
    when the light went off. Approximately 68% of the officers (one standard deviation) fell within
    the range of 0.10 and 0.60 seconds to cease pulling the trigger. Many officers did pull the trigger
    more than once after the light went off. In one example, an officer pulled the trigger three
    times during the illumination of the light, began a fourth trigger pull as the light went out, and
    then pulled the trigger a fifth time. The fourth and fifth trigger pull took only a half second to
    complete. This officer, reacting within a range that is comprised of 68% of the participants, still
    had two “unjustified” trigger pulls.


    Experiment #3: Simple Decision-Making
    Through this experiment, an attempt was made to understand the impact of simple decision-
    making and visual complexity on reaction time.
    This experiment was an extension of Experiment
    #1 in that this experiment added confounding elements to the simple determination of
    whether a light was illuminated (as was the case in Experiment #1). The element of a “go/nogo”
    decision requirement was one such addition. In Experiment #1, the illumination of the
    green light in the upper left corner (the only light to be illuminated) was all one needed to pull
    the trigger. In Experiment #3, officers were instructed that cluster of lights may be illuminated
    anywhere on the top line of the board. Further, they were only to pull the trigger when all three
    lights in a cluster were illuminated. They were not to pull the trigger if only two lights of a
    cluster came on.
    The requirement of go/no-go decision-making in this experiment essentially doubled the
    reaction times found observed in Experiment #1. This is consistent with other reaction time
    literature. The average for the 102 participating officers to identify the illumination of 3-light
    clusters, react to it, and actually pull the trigger was 0.56 seconds. If you back out the 0.06 seconds
    to mechanically pull the trigger, then the average time to perceive the light cluster, mentally
    process it, and decide to pull the trigger was 0.50 seconds (as compared to 0.25 seconds in
    Experiment #1).

    The range of reaction times (not counting the actual trigger pull) was 0.44 seconds to
    0.69 seconds within one standard deviation (68% of the officers). The 25% variability with one
    standard deviation can be explained in part by individual reaction and processing ability, varying
    capacity to concentrate, anxiety, and other factors. It is worth noting that these same variables
    exist amongst the same officers in the real world. An obvious implication is that average,
    comparable officers do not necessarily bring the same baggage or ability to a shooting incident;
    different officers may bring about different outcomes to otherwise similar circumstances.
    An interesting side note of Experiment #3 relates to the so-called “Oops Factor.” Of all
    trigger pulls, 9% occurred when the cluster pattern did not warrant them. Further, 4% of the 3-
    light cluster illuminations resulted in no trigger pull when there should have been one. While
    the error rates here are not unfamiliar or even alarming within the context of laboratory experiments,
    the outside world (including prosecutors, community leaders, academicians, and victims
    of accidental shootings) are less forgiving of honest errors made in the field.
    Experiment #4: The Role of Anticipation
    The final experiment of the study measured the influence of anticipation on reaction
    times. In this experiment, the participants were presented with a variety of lights on the stimulus
    board. All of the lights illuminated at irregular intervals. The lights, which were yellow,
    red, and green, would go on and off. Eventually, a pattern of green lights would begin to appear.
    When the pattern of green lights was complete, the participant was expected to pull the
    trigger. If the pattern never became complete, then no trigger was warranted and the participant
    was to wait for the next completed pattern.
    Like Experiment #3, this phase of the study required officers to make a “go/no-go” decision.
    Further, Experiment #4 included greater visual complexity than any of the other three experiments.
    However, the anticipation of the perceived “threat” in the form of an increasinglycomplete
    green light pattern was an entirely new dimension embedded in the officers’ reactions.
    Interestingly, the addition of an ability (or liability) to anticipate the threat caused the
    reaction times of participants to drop from 0.56 seconds to 0.46 seconds. Further, anticipation
    was apparently responsible for reducing the failure to pull the trigger when justified to practically
    zero. Perhaps somewhat surprising, the element of anticipation also appears to have reduced
    unwarranted trigger pulls. While some observers might have expected that anticipation
    would cause officers to “jump the gun,” in fact, just the opposite occurred. The unwarranted
    trigger pull rate dropped from 9% in Experiment #3 to 5% in Experiment #4. Quite possibly,
    the greater level of concentration devoted to the forming pattern of green lights made it more
    keenly evident to participants when the pattern failed to ultimately materialize, thereby reducing
    the number of improper trigger pulls.
    The table below summarizes the reaction times measured in the four experiments.
    Table 1: Average Reaction Times Across the Four Experiments
    Movement Average Time Needed
    Pull trigger after a visual stimulus 0.31 seconds
    Stop pulling the trigger 0.35 seconds
    Go/no-go decision to pull trigger 0.56 seconds
    Pull trigger after anticipation 0.46 seconds
    Discussion
    While all four experiments in this study were conducted under laboratory conditions, the
    implications for police officers on the streets are fairly evident. It does not take a significant
    degree of imagination to see how variability in officer reaction times under different conditions,
    as measured by the consummation of trigger pulls, is relevant for assessing police shootings in
    the field.
    As noted earlier, a number of studies have shown that armed suspects can fire upon police
    officers and begin to run away before the officers can physiologically react and return fire
    (20, 21-23). The 4-part study presented here provides additional empirical evidence concerning
    the limited capacity of police officers, or any other human beings, to react. Stated simply, reaction
    takes time; further, reaction is difficult to turn off. “Stopping” is a reaction to a change in
    stimulus. Like any other reaction, “stopping” is never instantaneous.


    If he stops, I'll stop...just doesn't work.

    If you put the sight on someone and press the trigger, you've committed, so you better understand the gravity of the situation...that you have made a decision to kill someone based on their actions.

  10. #130
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Michell, that's very good info, some of which I'm familiar with. With that in consideration, it has nothing to do with my intent. My reactions will be dictated by training & physiology just like those statements. But my intent will not change.

    And neither will my commitment....as stated in other conversions, I'm not carrying a weapon of deadly force lightly...if I was unwilling to kill an attacker, I'd use alternatives. But I certainly won't aspire to losing control OR using it as an excuse for a moral platform to eradicate human vermin.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #131
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    In a carry situation, if my gun is drawn, that means I'm ready to use it. No warning shot as I'd have to worry about where that bullet is going. Any shots fired from my weapon will be directed at BG's COM.
    In a HD situation, the unmistakable sound of a 12 gauge racking will be the only "warning shot" BG gets. If that doesn't deter him, lead will.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  12. #132
    Senior Member Array GentlemanJim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomtsr View Post

    My question is when, if ever, would you fire a warning shot?
    I always fire warning shots. Three of them, center of mass.

    If that's not sufficient warning, I don't know what is.

    Jim

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