Two Hostages: Would you put down your gun?

Two Hostages: Would you put down your gun?

This is a discussion on Two Hostages: Would you put down your gun? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In another thread the question was asked about when and if you would ever fire a warning shot. Many replied using the words never, ever ...

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Thread: Two Hostages: Would you put down your gun?

  1. #1
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    Two Hostages: Would you put down your gun?

    In another thread the question was asked about when and if you would ever fire a warning shot. Many replied using the words never, ever under any circumstances. Myself and others stated be very careful of using the words never, ever. Lets see how this one plays out. There is no wrong or right answer per say.

    You have walked in to a store with your wife, child, girlfriend, boyfriend, cousin (insert whatever or whomever means the most to you in the world here).

    You step away to grab something off the shelf and that person is snatched up by the lone suspect armed with a large combat knife. You here them yell and turn to confront them. Along with your SO he also has a young woman pulled around him. You do not have a shot on the suspect and he has the knife pressed against the throat of the young woman.

    He orders you to put your gun down or he will kill someone. You hesitate at first. Then in one quick movement the suspect stabs the young woman in the throat and she collapes to the floor. His full attention is now turned to what matters most to you in the world. He again says he will kill to make his point clear you have 10 seconds to comply.

    Just for the record he has no other weapon just the knife and there are no other suspects involved.

    Would you still say never, ever, ever?

    Please do not respond with "I would never let myself be put into this position" or "I am single and have no one or so on". Think about what you would do.

    Please note this is not a "Should I fire a warning shot" scenario I should have been more clear. The question is do you comply with the suspects commands or do you stick with the never, ever give up my gun answer.
    Last edited by tacman605; June 9th, 2011 at 01:05 PM.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


  2. #2
    JD
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    There's no guarantee that a warning shot would do anything to alter his plans. If anything it may startle him in action against my spouse After all, noncompliance is noncompliance. He didn't order me to fire a warning shot, he ordered me to drop the gun. Anything I do at that point other than dropping the gun is likely to instigate him into action. He's all ready demonstrated the will to use force, I'm not dropping my gun. I'd probably just wait him out for a shot or signal my spouse to drop/distract the guy and shoot him.

  3. #3
    Member Array bwalker25's Avatar
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    Well the young lady is dead already at this point...My response could consist of 2 options:
    1. If I have already drawn down on the suspect I will fire on the suspect because the young lady is already dead and my wife and daughters mean the world to me.
    2. If I have not already drawn down on the suspect he would not know I had a CCW. At this point I would plead with him that I would give him my wallet and money (which is in my back left pocket) However I would turn strong side (right side) away from him and say here is my wallet and in one swift motion I would pull out my CCW and fire on him.

    Given the facts presented here, I am clearly at option 1 and already drawn down on the suspect and in the situation I would already have my finger on the trigger. He has already shown the intent to kill, and there would be no point in firing a warning shot to provoke him killing my family. I would NOT fire a warning shot, the last sound he would hear would be the BANG after I pull the trigger.

    edit:

    just to note, his first attention was on the young lady that is already now dead. At that point when she falls I am already as noted at option 1 when the lady falls dead there is the opening to take out the suspect.
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    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Interesting scenario but how does a warning shot figure into the equation?

  5. #5
    TVJ
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    bang bang bang bang bang bang bang......into the ground when the lady drops.

    911 for the lady, pressure to stop bleeding, pray.


    Knives are a fast Skinnerian Operant conditioned "GO" for me after FoF training with/against them.

    Texas law backs my shooting.

    I get a mental "Windows blue screen" when I attempt to understand using a warning shot in this scenario.
    Last edited by TVJ; June 9th, 2011 at 09:02 AM. Reason: detail
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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Yeah, a warning shot could do nothing to help you in this scenario. This is one case where a BUG could probably help. Drop the primary and when he lets his guard down, nail him.
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    VIP Member Array PAcanis's Avatar
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    I was one of the ones who stated that a warning shot could work to diffuse certain situations.
    And this ain't one of them.

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    I'm not sure how an individual can hold TWO people at knife point. A knife, though DEVASTATING, is a contact weapon and while he is "on" one person he is off another which gives the other a very clear opportunity to escape.

    First, I'd LOVE to see someone already trying to handle a hostage try to take my husband hostage at knife point. Honestly, I probably wouldn't even draw. I'd wait for my husband to handle it and handle it he would. The bad guy more than likely wouldn't even have a chance to stab the young woman before he was disarmed and hurting himself.

    But, I'll play nice. Let's say it's my son. Someone totally defenseless and he scoops my son up while he is also trying to cover the second woman with a knife. (And I keep a pretty close eye on my boy.. someone coming close to him with a frightened looking woman in toe would certainly raise suspicions but.. again.. I'll play along.)

    As I said, I really cannot see how he would easily be able to control a young woman AND a 2 y/o AND a knife. But let's say he can. He's got his arm around my son, an arm around the other young woman and the knife is to her throat.

    I'm not even convinced I would bring a gun into the scenario yet. I might, I might not. It would depend. He's not going to be able to easily move (two hostages) and while my son is his hostage I'm not convinced that bringing a gun into the scenario is a good move yet as it might insight him to start cutting.

    But let's say he does suddenly just stab this woman's throat.

    Again, it is NOT easy to control two hostages much less one child and a grown woman. No one being stabbed is just going to stand there. Even if she's dying her body is going to respond and while he's dealing with that (a turn of the body, etc) I might have a shot.. and if I do I'm going to use it. Yes, I run the risk of hitting my son but I'd rather run that risk then run the risk of him being taken and tortured or abused elsewhere with the possibility that I never see him or know of his end. It's a risk I'm willing to take. And you cannot use a child for full cover. Even if he holds my son in front of his head his pelvis will be visible and therefore shootable. If he holds the child down his head is now "shootage" and depending on distance I am confident enough to put my "warning shot" into his eyeball or hip.

    No. I would not use a warning shot in this scenario. What warning is there to give? "Let my loved one go or I'll shoot the floor again?" Either you will shoot him or you won't. Shooting the floor or whatever isn't going to change that and, as stated, a warning shot might just entice him to start hacking sooner than anticipated.

  9. #9
    JD
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    I could possibly see it being used as a distraction technique, but then it's not really a waning shot is it?

  10. #10
    GM
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    ...
    Just for the record he has no other weapon just the knife and there are no other suspects involved.
    ...
    How could I be sure about that?



    Quote Originally Posted by wmhawth View Post
    Interesting scenario but how does a warning shot figure into the equation?
    I wonder the same.



    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    There's no guarantee that a warning shot would do anything to alter his plans. If anything it may startle him in action against my spouse. He's all ready demonstrated the will to use force, I'm not dropping my gun. I'd probably just wait him out for a shot or signal my spouse to drop/distract the guy and shoot him.
    I agree with JD. He already showed what he is capable of doing; he stabbed a person. What makes you believe that a warning shot will stop him form hurting you or other people? I do not care if he has just a knife or a bazooka, I would not fire a warning shot. And remember that a knife never run out of bullets.

    Furthermore, there is other thing to consider, if you fire a warning shot that bullet will hit somewhere. How do you know that it will not kill/hurt an innocent person?
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

  11. #11
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    This one is easy shoot the guy in the head you are with in easy range of being accurate to within a few inches shy on the wayward side of your loved one.

    Warning shot scenario

    3 punkass teenagers are harrassing a elderly woman and you offer assistance and tell the kids to beat it or you will call the cops. As the elderly lady is getting away and you are telling the kids that they should be ashamed of themselves, just like any other adult would do. Two of the kids pull out knives and the other kid pulls out some sort of pepper spray. You start to back away from the situation and realize your only exit is through them. Now I know a lot of people will say that situational awareness would not let you get cornered but sometimes its not as obvious. So do you drawn down on the teenagers and tell them that you are prepared to defend yourself. One of the kids says what you gonna do shoot a kid and tried to find out if your bluffing by trying to make you flinch, not one of the kids that you are aiming at of course.

    I would put a shot right beside the cockiest one or the one I thought was the ring leader, this would serve two purposes one someone is going to call the cops if they havent already with ,"I just heard a gunshot", Second only the dumbest kids would stick around after that and after the warning shot put the gun towads the next one that talks to you saying your first, I would have a decision to make between the ringleader and the pepper spray guy. He could possibly get to you easier vs throwing or lunging with a knife .

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array JDE101's Avatar
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    I don't see what a warning shot in this instance would accomplish except waste a bullet! He has already demonstrated he is willing to cause great bodily harm or death to an innocent individual. He is fair game to be shot if the opportunity presents itself. He is still a threat to people and I would shoot until the threat stops.
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    still no warning shots, please try again

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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CUTigers View Post
    I would put a shot right beside the cockiest one or the one I thought was the ring leader, this would serve two purposes one someone is going to call the cops if they havent already with ,"I just heard a gunshot", Second only the dumbest kids would stick around after that and after the warning shot put the gun towads the next one that talks to you saying your first, I would have a decision to make between the ringleader and the pepper spray guy. He could possibly get to you easier vs throwing or lunging with a knife .
    Still no warning shot for me. The pepper spray guy may not be the deadly threat here, but he can reach me from a distance and hinder my ability to defend myself against the others. Normally I'm of the opinion that if I clear leather something is getting shot, but I'll play along here. Assuming that I've drawn and not fired yet, I'm leveling between pepper spray thug's eyes so he can stare down the bore and I tell him if anyone makes a move, he gets it first, then his buddy. If the standoff lasts much longer than it takes me to say that, I pull out my phone with my off hand, dial 911 and put them on speaker. I've practiced shooting one-handed with both hands and I'm fairly confident that at this distance I could pull off the shots. The first shot on pepper spray thug is the only one-handed shot I'd make anyway, I'd drop my phone (that what the otterbox is for) and two-hand the thug that made a move while getting off the X.
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    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    I'm with "wmhawth" I see NO GOOD coming from a warning shot here. He has already killed once unprovoked, nothing suggests that he won't kill again. I'm taking him out. Something on his body is uncovered from a woman standing in front of him,(assuming that he is bigger than a woman) I'll hit that spot first and then take whatever target opens up from there.
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