Armed robbery of Subway (SC)

[mel]

Compliance doesn't always work:>>link<<

You are 100% right. Compliance doesn't always work, especially in the case of the 17 year old idiot from Minnesota. I believe, and those out there that know please correct me, but the workers at the convenience store in Iowa at the time wouldn't have been allowed to have a CCW permit at the time of the crimes. Now if that would have happened today and the owner of the stores was forward thinking those employees would have had the right to protect themselves.

I am happy that the Subway employee wasn't injured, but I have to imagine that he is considering finding another job.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[oakchas]

True, the killings occurred before Iowa became "shall issue." That said, it's possible that the counties the victims lived in at the time were lenient, as mine was, prior to the change in the law.

Unfortunately most of the owners of small one horse town convenience stores are not forward thinking enough, and often suggest "compliance" citing "insurance and liability" issues.

If I ever own a cab company, pizza shop w/wo delivery service, convenience store, etc. I woud want my employees to have a fighting chance. I would offer to pay for permit and training. The training would be required for any one who already had a permit. Carrying would be optional, but strongly encouraged.

[phreddy]

Who pay's with cash anymore?

I've got a renter who wants to pay her rent in cash, $650.00/month.

[BadgerJ]

I noticed this as well. The thing the "gangstas" don't know is that not only is it very inaccurate to shoot a handgun like this, but it also makes it much easier to take it away from them. In our Aikido class, we practice taking guns away from people. In this case, if we were standing in front of this guy, we'd use our right hand with our palm facing right, to grab his gun and twist his wrist clockwise.

I'm calling BS. A guy pulls a HG on you suddenly and you, like 99.999% of the population are ducking and diving. No disrespect, but IRL is not like in Aikido class.

[Bark'n]

I think the clerk did exactly what he should of done. He's a [near] minimum-wage worker in a fast food joint that doesn't get paid to disarm/defend against criminals. Best case scenario is the bg gets shot (or cut w/ subway's gigantic bread knife), clerk gets fired. Worse case, clerk tries to do what he can, gets shot, if he lives....gets fired, else, family has to pay funeral bills.

Who he's working for and how much money he's paid has nothing to do with the equation. It's his life on the line. Not Subway's and the money isn't the issue either. The entire time the gunman is in the store he's holding everyone's life. A moderately trained person could have ended this easily.

It's not that the clerk would or should intervene to save the store's money. It would be to intervene to keep from getting shot on the whim of a robber.

A lot of people want to give up the cash and hope and pray the robber chooses not to go ahead and kill them anyway. Well, the evidence is in... There are a whole lot of convenience store, and fast food joints these days where the video tape shows a cold blooded killing after the clerk shows no resistance and complies. There have been at least three in Kansas City in the last year that I've seen on the news. And I don't watch the local news on a daily, or even weekly basis. That's too many in my book.

[oakchas]

Who he's working for and how much money he's paid has nothing to do with the equation. It's his life on the line. Not Subway's and the money isn't the issue either. The entire time the gunman is in the store he's holding everyone's life. A moderately trained person could have ended this easily.

It's not that the clerk would or should intervene to save the store's money. It would be to intervene to keep from getting shot on the whim of a robber.

A lot of people want to give up the cash and hope and pray the robber chooses not to go ahead and kill them anyway. Well, the evidence is in... There are a whole lot of convenience store, and fast food joints these days where the video tape shows a cold blooded killing after the clerk shows no resistance and complies. There have been at least three in Kansas City in the last year that I've seen on the news. And I don't watch the local news on a daily, or even weekly basis. That's too many in my book.

PERZACTLY, PLUS ONE!

Armed robberies (and other criminal acts) are used as gang initiations nowadays. Who knows how far an impressionable youth will go to impress his new "family" with no thought of the probable consequences.

[TVJ]

I noticed this as well. The thing the "gangstas" don't know is that not only is it very inaccurate to shoot a handgun like this, but it also makes it much easier to take it away from them. In our Aikido class, we practice taking guns away from people. In this case, if we were standing in front of this guy, we'd use our right hand with our palm facing right, to grab his gun and twist his wrist clockwise. Well, that is the first thing we do, followed very quickly by several other steps. The twisting of the wrist is the key element, though. The great thing about the "gangsta" style of holding a gun is that their wrist is already twisted inwards 90 degrees. This gives us an enormous advantage because now we only have to twist his wrist just barely in order to incapacitate him arm. But if a person is holding a gun correctly, we have to twist a lot harder and further.

Of course, if he were to be holding the gun the "correct" way with two hands then it would be much more difficult to take it away. In fact, so much that I probably wouldn't even attempt it unless I thought my life depended on it.

In your Aikido training - sometime when you practice knife disarms - have your opponent who "attacks" put down his training knife.

Give him the largest, sharpest steak knife from your own kitchen that you - intentionally - take to the dojo that knife training day.

Or get a big, sharp pocket folder from another student

Begin again. Disarm at speed.

Are you willing? Is your partner even willing to play?

See what feelings, if any, rise up.

Where do you have to go mentally to still practice disarm now?

What do you have to do mentally to get there?

What's different now between this and real perp with real knife? Whats still the same?

Do you feel any differently about compliance or explosively getting off the X and running away?

_______________

Another drill.
_______________


Wear no shirt, just airsoft level head mask/goggles

Wear shorts.

Cut hole in front portion of trigger guard on airsoft gun so aggressors finger stays safe.

Practice disarms from 3-5 feet against live airsoft with no shirt and shorts

Make getting shot really painful versus painless red or blue gun work.

Allow opponent to empty his airsoft from this distance if he wants if you fail to disarm.

Let opponent holster up with airsoft.

Go do other drills in dojo.

Allow opponent to 'mug' you at his choice, anytime, anywhere while you are at the dojo doing whatever. Bathroom included. You must wear head/eye protection all class

Or he can skip doing it. Keep you honest. How long can you stay hypersensitive in real life?

Same questions as above......


The catch 22 of self defense training is the 'keeping it safe' for the practitioners part.

Where is the "safe" when the real deal happens?

What happens when the Perp rips my training wheels off?

Do I even know I have training wheels on?

[oakchas]

In your Aikido training - sometime when you practice knife disarms - have your opponent who "attacks" put down his training knife.

Give him the largest, sharpest steak knife from your own kitchen that you - intentionally - take to the dojo that knife training day.

Or get a big, sharp pocket folder from another student

Begin again. Disarm at speed.

Are you willing? Is your partner even willing to play?

See what feelings, if any, rise up.

Where do you have to go mentally to still practice disarm now?

What do you have to do mentally to get there?

What's different now between this and real perp with real knife? Whats still the same?

Do you feel any differently about compliance or explosively getting off the X and running away?

_______________

Another drill.
_______________


Wear no shirt, just airsoft level head mask/goggles

Wear shorts.

Cut hole in front portion of trigger guard on airsoft gun so aggressors finger stays safe.

Practice disarms from 3-5 feet against live airsoft with no shirt and shorts

Make getting shot really painful versus painless red or blue gun work.

Allow opponent to empty his airsoft from this distance if he wants if you fail to disarm.

Let opponent holster up with airsoft.

Go do other drills in dojo.

Allow opponent to 'mug' you at his choice, anytime, anywhere while you are at the dojo doing whatever. Bathroom included. You must wear head/eye protection all class

Or he can skip doing it. Keep you honest. How long can you stay hypersensitive in real life?

Same questions as above......


The catch 22 of self defense training is the 'keeping it safe' for the practitioners part.

Where is the "safe" when the real deal happens?

What happens when the Perp rips my training wheels off?

Do I even know I have training wheels on?

I have considered formal martial arts training. I even had some in my younger years. "Formal martial arts" Karate, Judo, Aikido, and all the rest, have a place. They do increase confidence, stamina, ability to avoid. But they do not truly prepare you for the real world of truly violent crime. There are no tap outs in real life.

Krav Maga and some of the other, more current versions of self defense may give you better options in the real world. Force on force training is probably the best you can do. And, I honestly feel you probably need to get hurt to know what you can fight thru. It's like training with OC spray... If you haven't sprayed your little bottle of pepper spray into the wind, how do you know it won't completely incapacitate you due to an extreme allergic reaction. While the thug on drugs fights thru it, enraged that you tried it on him.

No, I am of an age where I no longer have the ability to physically defend myself. I am currently recuperating from rotator cuff surgery, I have a pretty severe limp. I can do a lot of stuff still... but time and the abuse of my body in my younger years has slowed me down.

For the younger, more agile, the handgun may be further down on the list of defensive tools. For me, it's nearer the top. That said; my years of experience with all types of people from the "dregs" to the "royals", my own cunning, and finally, my weapon and it's effective use, will most likely, allow me to survive an incident in which I am put at risk of grave bodily harm. Possibly, quite possibly without having to even draw my weapon.

I do refuse to be a victim (and that also means that I will not be victimized by not going where I mightn't be "safe" because in reality, no place really is "safe"). I will not hesitate for one moment to defend myself in the gravest extreme.