This is a discussion on scary scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; okay, i have too much time on my hands...
you are in a store. a young couple with a small child is arguing near ...
July 30th, 2006 11:32 AM
okay, i have too much time on my hands...
you are in a store. a young couple with a small child is arguing near the register. the man, who looks not so good, starts screaming and grabs the child, facing away from you, and holding a knife near the child's face. he threatens to kill the child, and yells madly at the woman, who is hysterical. the man holding the child is 8 ft in front of you, facing away towards the woman. the women is 5 ft further on past the perp. you have your pistol in your pocket.the only other person in the store is a scared female clerk.
what should you do? you could kill the guy by shooting him in the back of his head, execution style, with small but not zero risk to the kid and others. would you?
i do not know what made me think of this, but i am very protective of kids so i think about such disasters.
Six for sure...Uh, I mean Five. Five for sure..
July 30th, 2006 11:32 AM
July 30th, 2006 11:40 AM
I'm not sure what you can do. I know for sure I do not want to startle this guy from behind and I know I'm not going to shoot him in the back of the head. I would watch every move that this man makes but my response will depend on his. I hope I never have to be in this situation.
July 30th, 2006 12:44 PM
I am going to repeat what is fast becoming my situational mantra - boring tho it must sound.
''Play it as you see it".
I have analyzed in my mind many a scenario - real or imagined - and while it helps us all to at least stop and consider these - ultimately I see so many variables, some quite small, that I could only act ultimately according to my assessment - there and then.
This one for sure is not easy at all.
Chris - P95
NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.
"To own a gun and assume that you are armed
is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."
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July 30th, 2006 12:45 PM
Yell "HEY!" from about 4 feet away, mace him in the face when he turns around, punt kick him in the balls, then take the knife away.
Seriously, I would have to watch what he does, where he is standing and start moving to an angle that I could shoot (if need be) with the most-minimal or no human backstop. I would normally not get involved in some kind of "domestic" argument between a man/woman, however that never gives a right to anyone to bring in a child, especially under lethal circumstances. If he so much as breathes wrong in that childs' direction with that knife pointed at them I'm going to interrupt the conversation in a pretty violent manner.
I re-read the original post and I guess I jumped the gun (sorry, bad pun) on the "domestic" situation. There was no mention of these two people having any kind of relationship, but it still doesn't change my answer nor the reason behind the action I proposed.
Last edited by soundwave; July 30th, 2006 at 12:51 PM.
July 30th, 2006 02:37 PM
Reading another thread, I looked to see what the final version of OK's "Stand Your Ground Law." It says,
"A. A person who is not engaged in a an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force, if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
I think that covers you legally .. but, and I think what Chiefs-SG is asking .. do you shoot a person in the back of the head ... I dunno. Most cases, I'd say absolutely NOT; but this guy deserves to be judged by his maker in the pretty near future.
I think, as Chris and others have said .. you've just gotta be there and do what'll allow you to go on living with your decision, and sleep at night.
Just keep in mind, once you've walked into this situation .. you're there. ANYTHING YOU DO FROM THIS POINT FORWARD, FROM WALKING BACK OUT THE DOOR TO CAPPING THIS GUY IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD .. IS .. unfortunately, your choice and you'll have to live with it .. forever. Making no decision or just waiting .. is a decision that WILL have consequences.
Sorry .. not shouting .. just trying to add emphasis to something I feel strongly about.
Geez .. tough .. but good question.
July 30th, 2006 04:50 PM
Not anywhere ennough information on which to base a decision.
Kind of store? What is available as a makeshift weapon? What I mean, is I am behind him, what can I hit him with??
Do not want to shoot him, and really would rather mother solve the problem, because if I get involved, I may have to fight both of them.
July 30th, 2006 05:11 PM
Nightmare scenario. Hands down. I think you'd have to play it by ear. Though I think once he said he was going to kill the child or threatened to, its over... I like soundwaves idea. Kick him in the jimmy and draw him to the floor. There is no possible excuse to bring a knife to a childs throat.
When I was a bouncer, one of our regulars defused a situation like this. He was sitting next to a guy who was getting drunk beyond reason. For the sake of space I won't explain why, but he was still being served. He was getting more and more beligerent to his wife, sitting next to him. Our regular patron, Joe, sat quietly next to him listening to the escalation. Finally, as I was walking over to throw the drunkard out, he smashes a beer bottle and makes like hes going to stab his wife in the face. Joe grabs him by the throat, picks him up out of the barstool, and gives him two swift knees to the groin. Joe dropped him to the ground and put his knee in his back until Fairfax Police arrived. It was a perfect response to an otherwise deadly situation.
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"It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon." - Justice Scalia, SCOTUS - DC v Heller - 26 JUN 2008
July 30th, 2006 05:17 PM
What is the problem with shooting someone in the back of the head? Where does it say that he has to see your piece or you have to warn him or whatever? I would have no problem shooting someone in the back of the head or back or wherever if he is committing a violent act toward someone else.
July 30th, 2006 05:26 PM
Didn't read the other posts yet.
I would move at an angle so my bullet wouldn't hit the bystanders if it went through his head. I'd take a headshot, base of the skull inline with his earhole bullet going up to opposite side of his weapon hand. Not contact, just extend arm and shoot.
Basically if front of skull were 12:00, I'd aim at 5:30 about four inches up from his neck. Needs to be off center a bit to catch left side of upper brain in case you miss the MO (medula oblongata) if he has weapon in right hand (left side of brain controls right side of body). If weapon is in left hand, I'd shoot about 6:30 instead. If the side of the brain that contols the weapon hand is damaged, sensory to that area is affected, causing muscle control loss (ie, inability to feel muscles move) among other things. If I hit the MO and the "control side" of the brain, I have elimited the two areas of the brain that control his actions: the hemisphere and the MO.
Which way I shoot off center would be dictated by which hand his weapon is in and as I draw my gun, move to the position that would afford me this angle. Should drop him like a sack of crap. Prepare to follow up if necessary.
July 30th, 2006 06:02 PM
Whoever said that every shot has to be lethal?
If you're only 5 feet away and this guy already has his back to you, I'd suggest a carefully aimed shot to the guys weapon arm/shoulder. His automatic reflex will be to drop the knife and he's unlikely to have the control or training to switch hands after an unexpected bullet, not to mention the effect the noise and blast of a bullet going off in a closed area will have. He's holding the kid with his other arm, so it's effectively already incompacitated and if he does try to attack you or anyone else after the first shot, you can always follow up with another, more lethal, second one.
"... Americans... we want a safe home, to keep the money we make and shoot bad guys." -- Denny Crane
July 30th, 2006 06:14 PM
If I am pulling the trigger it isn't to try and piss someone off. They are going to die. You do not use deadly force for a less than lethal purpose. Plain and simple. If I shoot them there are two places where my bullets will go: head or chest. This isn't Hollywood. Don't piss around, get the job done.
Someone's life is in immediate danger of being ended and you're going to try and "shoot to disarm"?!? Shoot to stop the threat. To do that, kill. You don't shoot someone to knock them out, you do it to kill them. If you want to simply disarm him, leave the gun in the holster.
Reminds me of that video I watched in cop school where the cop tried to shoot someone that was charging him in the leg to knock him down. Guess what? That cop is now dead and his two children are growing up without a father.
July 30th, 2006 06:32 PM
Ugly, ugly scene, folks.
Cray is right: no matter what you do, you've got to live with it forever, and, like Cray says, in the words of "Rush" (from "Free Will"), "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice".
I imagine most of us would wait to see what happened, do the 9-1-1 and hope that the idiot would decide not to kill the child.
Legally, you're probably covered no matter what you do. No obligation, generally to defend others (unless, maybe, in this hypothetical you are the owner of the establishment or the child's guardian). If you shoot, at least in my State, you probably have a defense under a statute allowing you to use the force necessary to prevent a crime. If you don't shoot, you're way, way clear, simply to walk out the door.
The safe thing is to not shoot, call 9-1-1 and get out of there.
Not sure about the the right thing, though.
July 30th, 2006 06:42 PM
exactly- you can legally do the 911, please put that down, bit. that may work. but shooting him will almost certainly work, and the circumstances are very favorable to your winning. but can you do it in that situation? sometimes i think it is a no-brainer- he is threatening to kill a child, end of discussion. on the other hand, we are human beings, and it isn't so easy to do this.
this scenario, and one in which you face agression, but maybe not lethal aggression, are ones that i think about quite often. i am not so sure how to act.
May the Lord not put us to the test.
Six for sure...Uh, I mean Five. Five for sure..
July 30th, 2006 06:51 PM
I wouldn't have a problem shooting someone if it were justified.
July 30th, 2006 08:44 PM
The problem is that his head is in front of the child's. The child is your backstop. If you shoot any gun greater than a .22 into his head you're going to shoot the child as well, even then it can still bounce out his eye socket and hit them, too.
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