You're Both Wounded: What is your priority?

This is a discussion on You're Both Wounded: What is your priority? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Secret Spuk All you guys who shoot the perp after he's down may get to share the same cell with him if ...

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Thread: You're Both Wounded: What is your priority?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    All you guys who shoot the perp after he's down may get to share the same cell with him if you both live. Or maybe share a cell with some of his friends if he dont survive. You can NOT try to exicute your adversary. What some are describing is in some circles known as a security round. Make sure that particular B.G dont come back on you... Nope... cant do that in the civilian world.

    I'll take my chances.
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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    All you guys who shoot the perp after he's down may get to share the same cell with him if you both live. Or maybe share a cell with some of his friends if he dont survive. You can NOT try to exicute your adversary. What some are describing is in some circles known as a security round. Make sure that particular B.G dont come back on you... Nope... cant do that in the civilian world.
    I'm very glad you brought this up, Spuk.

    Of course we all know a coup de grace is a no go (just ask the Oklahoma pharmacist who finished off a would be robber). But in that case the pharmacist wasn't wounded and had every opportunity to escape and didn't.

    Would "making sure he wasn't getting back up" even touch on legal in these circumstances? I won't even pretend to know the answer and maybe other, more knowledgeable individuals would be able to shed more light on the scenario.

    I've been extensively taught that, no, just because the threat is DOWN or running away does not mean it has stopped. People can still shoot while running away or from the ground. But would your fading consciousness and the fact that you are probably not going to be awake much longer warrant an extra "make sure" shot? With no witnesses it would be your word against.... whose? Possibly the evidence?

    What if such a shot is not possible from your position? What if he fell backward and from where you fell you have no good view of anything but the bottom of his feet, a hand and part of a torso or buttocks (i.e. non-lethal parts)? Are you really going to try to get up and/or crawl over to a better position make that final shot? How in the world would you explain the justification for that, especially if he was not moving? Could that be justifiable by any means?

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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    What if such a shot is not possible from your position? What if he fell backward and from where you fell you have no good view of anything but the bottom of his feet, a hand and part of a torso or buttocks (i.e. non-lethal parts)? Are you really going to try to get up and/or crawl over to a better position make that final shot? How in the world would you explain the justification for that, especially if he was not moving? Could that be justifiable by any means?
    In that case I would probably call 911 first, because I have even less idea if he is conscious...cant see face, head, chest rising, etc. And also because it is going to take alot more effort, in a seriously injured condition, to find out. Who knows if I'll succeed before passing out?

    So in this case, seems like calling 911 & describing myself first is best. I can (I hope) react to his/her efforts to rise and shoot me again if that happens while calling.
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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    All you guys who shoot the perp after he's down may get to share the same cell with him if you both live. Or maybe share a cell with some of his friends if he dont survive. You can NOT try to exicute your adversary. What some are describing is in some circles known as a security round. Make sure that particular B.G dont come back on you... Nope... cant do that in the civilian world.
    Not likely, and I'll take my chances.
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    I would make sure I was ready to respond if the threat resumed (i.e., make sure I've not run the gun dry, and if I have, reload) while calling 911 with all the pertinent information. If able to move, I'd try to move to a covered position - that way, even if the assailant does get up, he's going to have to look for me (and hopefully, I'm not too easy to find).

    Not sure what I'll be able to do in terms of first aid for my wounds - if I've got something handy to staunch the bleeding, I'd use it. And keep talking to that 911 operator. And watch the assailant in case a response is needed.

    As for his positioning, if all I can see are the soles of his feet and the tender bits in between, well, a well-placed shot between his feet would wreak havoc as it headed north.

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    I think that the scenario itself speaks toward the validation of burst fire rather than single or double taps in close range encounters. Things like the recent "Stopping Power" thread seem to indicate that multiple hits greatly reduce the likelihood of a reemergence of the aggressor.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    I have yet to black out during any injuries to date, but I don't expect a gunshot wound to be predictable at all. As I see this scenario, my number one goal is to get my phone dialing 911 before I lose the ability to do so, followed by covering the BG from my vantage point. If I am losing strength at an alarming rate, I have a serious and quick decision to make; do I decide that "I saw him trying to aim at me, so I shot him again" or do I take my chances that he is no longer upset enough with me to try it while I'm unconscious in a pool of my own blood? I don't think there is a question there, when it comes right down to it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    All you guys who shoot the perp after he's down may get to share the same cell with him if you both live. Or maybe share a cell with some of his friends if he dont survive. You can NOT try to exicute your adversary. What some are describing is in some circles known as a security round. Make sure that particular B.G dont come back on you... Nope... cant do that in the civilian world.
    Rules of engagement for those with training to identify dangerous situations and the ability to articulate why someone's actions were rational, reasonable, and lawful are very, very broad...

    Don't judge the world by your own standards.
    Bark'n, 9MMare and rhinokrk like this.

  10. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    All you guys who shoot the perp after he's down may get to share the same cell with him if you both live. Or maybe share a cell with some of his friends if he dont survive. You can NOT try to exicute your adversary. What some are describing is in some circles known as a security round. Make sure that particular B.G dont come back on you... Nope... cant do that in the civilian world.
    Rules of engagement for those with training to identify dangerous situations and the ability to articulate why someone's actions were rational, reasonable, and lawful are very, very broad...

    Don't judge the world by your own standards.
    Roger That, Sir.
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  11. #55
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    after the initial volley of shots there is an intermission....someone is around to tell the police how long that was. and here we have many branches....he was dead and x minutes later you shot a dead body cause.....
    or he was alive and you killed him and he was or wasn't a threat and you saw/didn't see him move. and....and....

    and thats why for all i said b4 i did not say shoot him again. if his bullets didn't than forensics may well--bury you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    after the initial volley of shots there is an intermission....someone is around to tell the police how long that was. and here we have many branches....he was dead and x minutes later you shot a dead body cause.....
    or he was alive and you killed him and he was or wasn't a threat and you saw/didn't see him move. and....and....

    and thats why for all i said b4 i did not say shoot him again. if his bullets didn't than forensics may well--bury you.
    Forensics, shmensics... I don't care how many minutes between shots, I was in the right and he was the bad guy trying to rob and kill me. The gun was still in his hand, I'm likely mortally wounded myself. I'm going to make sure the bad guy is not going to get up and kill me when I am unconscious and still have a chance to survive. It's that plain and simple. It's that cut and dry.

    If I live, I'll deal with the consequences for my actions. If I die, I'll have the satisfaction of taking him with me. But if I die, I'll also die knowing there's no way he's going to live and be able to continue walking around with a limp and a colostomy bag. It's called, having a winning, survival mindset! Some people simply don't have one of those.

    If I go to prison over it, I guess I'll have to man up and take it like the former Marine I am. But I seriously doubt... where I live, it will ever see the inside of a court room. I don't live in California, Illinois, New York/New Jersey, Maryland, Washington D.C., or any of those other politically correct liberal cesspools.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Rules of engagement for those with training to identify dangerous situations and the ability to articulate why someone's actions were rational, reasonable, and lawful are very, very broad...

    Don't judge the world by your own standards.

    MitchellCT.

    First off... I'm not judging anyone or anything. I just made a comment. I made this comment based on my own training, and real world experience. I cant think of any reasonable way to defend a "Coup de Gras" as someone called it. I know it as a security round. These are both military terms. And illegal under the UCMJ as far as I know.

    While you may believe that you can reason and articulate the justification of the "security round" I doubt any District Attorney would accept it under the conditions defined by the O/P. There will be people equally, or better trained to recognize danger testifying against you. Keeping in mind this is the civilian world, all arguments and explinations would be subject to the judgments of lay people. Most not understanding the dynamics of armed confrontation.

    Even in a situation before anyone is shot there is no justification for using deadly force against someone for what they could do, or might do. Just because someone is still moving dont make it justified... You cant exicute anyone.

    Spuk!

  14. #58
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    the overall agreement is that we on the ground do not wish to be put in it.

    having a winning, survival mindset is another way to say that.
    as in the past i have not had it where my bullets did not go where i wanted them to, i do not doubt that he is out of the game.
    additional shoots by me into him are unnecessary. but this was not my scenario.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Secret Spuk View Post
    MitchellCT.

    First off... I'm not judging anyone or anything. I just made a comment. I made this comment based on my own training, and real world experience. I cant think of any reasonable way to defend a "Coup de Gras" as someone called it. I know it as a security round. These are both military terms. And illegal under the UCMJ as far as I know.

    While you may believe that you can reason and articulate the justification of the "security round" I doubt any District Attorney would accept it under the conditions defined by the O/P. There will be people equally, or better trained to recognize danger testifying against you. Keeping in mind this is the civilian world, all arguments and explinations would be subject to the judgments of lay people. Most not understanding the dynamics of armed confrontation.

    Even in a situation before anyone is shot there is no justification for using deadly force against someone for what they could do, or might do. Just because someone is still moving dont make it justified... You cant exicute anyone.

    Spuk!

    The question presented involves a situation in which you are wounded severly enough that you fear you will loose conciousness with a possible hostile in close proximity who is down for the moment, but may or may not be out.

    The fight isn't over, making any rounds you fire a "Coup de Gras" or a "security round" - firing under those circumstances at an enemy who has just attacked and injured you severely is just good judgement under adverse circumstances.

    Most tactical medial classes will teach you to finish the fight before applying self aid to yourself, or applying first aid to others. You cannot treat effectively if you are still fighting, so the fight needs to be ended before other people, or yourself, die.

    In most situations if you have the capacity to withdraw for self aid, do so. Protecting yourself is more important a goal than killing the other guy; however, when your mobility is taken due to a wound and your time to effectively self treat is limited, you can't putz about with things.

    End the fight.
    Treat your wound.

    If ending the fight means while I'm laying on the floor holding my groin trying to plug a femoral bleeder and the guy who stabbed me is 6 feet away on his belly and may or may not be alive...dump the mag into him and get to trying to keep alive.

    The last thing you need while plugging your gusher is someone who should be dead pull a zombie, get up and stick a knife into your while you are desperately trying to keep alive.

    It's a reasonable, rational thing to do in a highly unreasonable, irrational situation.

    Pulling an Ersland...no, that's not reasonable, rational or correct.

    Making sure you can plug your own sucking chest wound without the homey-squad's mascot making another run at you...

    I'll argue that's proper, and conforms to life saving priorities for the red-cross and assorted tactical medical associations - make the sceen safe, then treat the wounded.

    If making the sceen safe means putting more brass on the floor... make the sceen safe, then treat the wounded.
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    Seeing as I've never been gutshot (or anyother shot to date), I have no idea of how I'd react. Anything would be pure speculation.

    As for plugging the other guy a few more times for safety's sake--I am not a murderer. I've used deadly force and stopped his attack, and that's all the law allows. I would keep him covered as well as I can, disarming if possible.

    Hopefully the gunfire will attract attention--and help.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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