ALLAHU AKBAR!" Possible Mall shooting scenario
This is a discussion on ALLAHU AKBAR!" Possible Mall shooting scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Save as many as I can. Circumstances would determine what that would entail....
June 23rd, 2011 03:15 PM
Save as many as I can. Circumstances would determine what that would entail.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
June 23rd, 2011 03:58 PM
Wow. I'm surprised by these answers. I don't think a great deal of tactical thought has gone into a lot of them (although not all). Facts that we know from the OP:
1) You have a handgun, fully loaded, plus one reload
2) You have heard automatic fire coming from two disparate and crossfire hallways (wide hallways, but hallways nonetheless)
3) Someone has screamed Allah is Great, which is often a precursor to an attack that is religously motivated (although not always)
4) Others are screaming in response
Facts that we can infer:
1) The attack is coordinated to some degree
2) More than one person is involved
3) Those people are separated by distances that make it impossible to corral them easily
4) You are not accompanied by others that are armed that could assist you
5) Your adversary has range, power, and fire on target advantages over you
6) Assuming it is a religously motivated attack, your adversaries do not care (or even wish) if they live
Facts that we can assume for the purpose of this thought exercise:
1) You are alone (to assume you have family is to make the scenario dead, since any rational person will focus only there)
2) It is a matter of minutes before the law enforcement show up
3) You want to live
Given these facts, the only scenario that makes any sense is to seek cover inside a store and direct any persons found in said store to seek like cover. If the targets present an opportunity to attack them, your cover will provide an element of surpise that will momentarily give you a potentially life saving (and life taking) advantage. Should you proceed into the hallway where the attack is occuring, you are likely to die or be severely wounded since your adversaries have numbers, space, placement, and firepower advantages on you. Should you attempt to exit, you are exposing yourself to greater risk. The attack is coordinated, meaning there is a high likelihood that exits and points of egress will be obstructed.
So, hide in cover, assess situation, attack if a clear opportunity or immediate risk presents itself. What you do when the cops arrive is dependent on their reaction. I would like to think they'd want to help but that is unlikely.
I'm all for running to the sound of fire but doing so in this scenario is a no win strategy. I prefer strategies that have a chance of winning.
Human Beings understand Reason, Compassion, and Dignity
Predators understand Strength
June 23rd, 2011 04:17 PM
Also important to think about. If you're going to take cover instead of turn tail and run you need to put some serious thought into what you're hiding behind. Based on the Islamic terrorist stereotype I'm going to assume they're probably using AK-47s, which shoot a fairly powerful 7.62 round. What looks like cover now might not cover so much after having been sprayed by 30 or so rounds. If you shoot something enough, even with small arms fire, it will get destroyed eventually.
Originally Posted by katmandoo122
This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.
June 23rd, 2011 07:27 PM
The effectiveness of any resistance will in large part be determined by the training and attributes of the terrorists and the efficacy of their plan.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
June 27th, 2011 01:17 AM
A terrorist situation was recently avoided in Seattle just last week. Two home grown terrorists (who converted to Islam) and then got indoctrinated into the Jihadist ideology planned to attack a military recruitment center.
The attacks in Mumbai were pre planned and the terrorists were well armed. They had explosives, censors, cameras, C4, level 4 body armor, night vision among other things.
It is difficult to assess ones plan of action when a scenario like this runs into you without warning. Most of these do.
Would my EDC weapon and extra clip be enough to take on a few heavily armed terrorists with body armor? I don't think so. Do I have an advantage to stay inside and get as much intel on the terrorists and pass it onto LE? Maybe if you are located at a strategic location where you have a macro view of all of them.
The smart and discreet thing to do would be to leave as soon as possible, taking your family and friends with you if you can. Terrorists usually don't wait around with hostages. They usually carry explosives. So its better to get as many people out to safety as soon as you can.
If you plan to engage with them, you can do so if are special forces or similar.
I lost a lot of friends and family in the Mumbai attacks. I wish everytime I think about it that I was there to save them.
Aerospace Designer, Freemason, NRA member
June 27th, 2011 08:20 AM
Very sorry for your loss!!!!!!
Originally Posted by wolfshead
Your advice seems sound to me!!!!
NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness,
nor the arrow for its swiftness,
nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend.
June 29th, 2011 05:22 PM
I think I would find some hard cover and see if a shot presents itself. As katmandoo122 pointed out, you're not going to be able to attack them head on and do anything except get mention in the report. A few rounds of 7.62x39 and you're out, probably having never even fired your pistol.
If you can find decent cover, you can take well-aimed shots and the shooters aren't likely to even notice, since their own fire will be so loud and close to them, and they'll be tracking the moving crowds so you won't stand out behind cover. You play your cards right and they'll never know you're even there. On the other hand, you really need to evaluate whether you're going to accomplish anything. The shooters may be wearing body armor, or even worse, explosives that may trigger if hit by a handgun round. Either way, the only really effective shots are likely to be head shots unless you know otherwise after you see them. There has been a lot of talk about trying to score headshots while shooting with a pistol at moving targets in other threads. I have enough trouble grouping rounds in a head-sized circle at 25 yards at a static range, let alone moving, ducking, bobbing and behind the sights of a rifle.
So, I'd probably try, but just as probably fail. At the very least, I'll try to direct some of the panicked masses, and put myself in a position where there's a possibility, however remote, that I can take one of the shooters out.
June 30th, 2011 04:56 AM
I am going to sneak or fight my way out. One way or another I am getting out. I would probably try to create my own exit by shooting out a window in a store. Sitting around and waiting for help is rarely ever a good option.
July 1st, 2011 07:22 PM
limatunes has the correct answer:
Use the back entrances and hallways to evade and escape. Take as many people with you. If you run smack into a armed terrorist, then fight. Ideally I'd try and stay 20-30 feet a head of my group/family in case we did run into problems. That way they could turn around and evade while I tried to stop the bad guy.
Honestly I don't know what my odds would be with just a J frame 38 or a micro 45. a lot would depend on who saw who first, and who gets the first shot(s) off. I know that a general rule of self defense is to NOT shoot someone in the back. But if I was dealing with terrorist who were just indiscriminately shooting people, I'd take any open shot I could get and I feel that I could easily justify that decision to the police/DA. I'd also assume that I was already dead given the imbalance of power, and my main goal would be to get my family out alive, even if I had to stay behind and cover their escape. And if I happen to survive, that's just a bonus.
I'd also harvest any weapons that I found on any dead terrorist, but at the same time, trying to be alert for the responding PD as I don't want to be holding an AK47 when the SWAT team enters the mall!
Somewhere in the Pacific NW
July 5th, 2011 09:53 AM
This seems like a bad bad idea and a quick way to get killed by professionals. I would not go outside and retrieve a long gun or anything like that. I would inform the responding LEOs of what is going on before I went home. Actions like the quote above seem reckless to me and are ill advised for a variety of reasons.
Originally Posted by INccwchris
July 5th, 2011 09:54 AM
As for me, I am not going to pretend to be a commando or an action hero. I am going home to my family and I will be retreating as quickly and as quietly as possible.
July 6th, 2011 01:27 AM
I completely agree with the fact that the number one goal is to go home to your family, or get them out of the situation alive. I will say this, 9/11 changed the game, and the passengers and crew of Flight 93 put the welfare and safety of others before themselves. Yes, self preservation is the first thought, and ultimately the final goal but if I am ever faced with this situation I hope that I will be able to use good sound judgement and training and respond accordingly.
July 6th, 2011 10:23 AM
Never bring a Pistol to a Machine Gun/Assault Rifle Gun fight... as describe by your words "AUTOMATIC WEAPONS FIRE"... CALL 911, and retreat defensively to the nearest exit.
July 6th, 2011 11:46 AM
just remember,if you decide to fight,all the tactics in the world want save your or aanyone else's life if you can't hit your target"train,train,train!!!".if you shoot and MISS,and hit a 5 year old child having ice cream with her granny,well its not the 3-4 terrorist you killed that you are going to be remembered for,always train for what you think can't and want happen.
July 6th, 2011 12:32 PM
What if you were close to a sporting goods store in the mall, my thought would be to duck in there and find good cover and get as many things loaded and nearby, in case it became a hostage situation or like if some other people said the outside was rigged with car bombs and explosives outside. i think i would rather go out fighting then to go out getting blown up by a bomb as i walk out a door.
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