The Agressor has been stopped.....Now What?
This is a discussion on The Agressor has been stopped.....Now What? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You are correct SIGguy, I am looking for opinions on what to do after the bullets leave the barrel. Im constantly running scenerios in my ...
June 20th, 2011 09:40 PM
You are correct SIGguy, I am looking for opinions on what to do after the bullets leave the barrel. Im constantly running scenerios in my head on options before drawing/fireing my weapon. I understand its my very last option. But I havent given much thought on what I should do after if I ever have to defend myself with lethal force. Should I get a attorney before I speak with LEO. When I do make a statement should I use words like I killed, I shot or maybe I stopped? These examples are along the lines of what I was looking for. Silly questions? Maybe..
I suppose I could read every post on this forum and find some insight on the subject ,but why would I when I could just ask? Thanks for the input
June 20th, 2011 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by SIGguy229
Being hard of hearing...walking with a weapon...directly towards someone who CC's...ignoring commands to stop....is a dangerous idea as well.
I wonder if the OP will define the weapon in the scenario and the distance of the perp to him when he shot perp
Gun, knife, pipe, bat, crowbar.......Here in Texas...with my immobile family in tow...who ignores a warning...tracking towards us....bang bang bang...until on the ground and still or running away from us.
The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
June 20th, 2011 10:22 PM
Maybe its just me but everyone seems to be ignoring the actual question asked!! Everyone seems so caught up in the scenario that they aren't answering the question, WHAT TO DO AFTER IT!
Now, to answer the question....
Well, I'm no expert on anything but I would hope I had my wits about me to take a good look and see if there are any other witnesses other than my family members to tell there view of what happened so I have some testimony back-up. I also hoped that while I was drawing and handling things on that side, my significant other was not only screaming but dialing 911! That way it should shorten the time span of help arriving. I also hope that I'm not so tunnel visioned and pumped on adrenilin that I remember to reholster or place the gun in a secure place off my person that way I could point or gesture to it when the cops came.
Thats all I got so far.
Glock 26 9mm, Ruger LCR .357mag
"Protect yourself at all times."
"Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."-Clint Smith
June 20th, 2011 11:20 PM
SIGguy, I think he gets it. He already said that one can assume that the necessary steps for identification have been taken and lethal force was justified. The scenario is not about whether or not it was legal to shoot but rather about the aftermath of lethal defense. Let's cut the new guy a little slack.
DamYankee, Welcome to the forum. As you see some people can get pretty particular around here. I understand what you are saying. You've already gotten some good answers.
Let's keep things on topic here.
June 21st, 2011 12:34 AM
I was responding to your specific post, not the original posters. My second paragraph detailed what you left out of your flat statement.
Originally Posted by BadgerJ
If someone is walking towards me and my loved one at night, HG out of the holster, he's getting shot, I think. I will have felt in fear for my life and my loved one. Now, alone, I can evade, seek cover, but you can't chance it with someone with you.
As to the op, if all considerations have been taken and shots fires, as recommended above first thing is to do a quick check on the family CLOSELY for any injuries then yourself CLOSELY. An adrenaline dump can mask a ton of damage to yourself.
Make sure they are in a safe location and do not leave the scene. Do NOT let your guard down and try notate as best you can either with a cell camera or notes written on your hand if that's all you can do. Watch for people messing with the scene like moving or trying to take items like the weapon your assailant had etc.
Call for medical help for both your assailant as well as your family and yourself. When you ask for LE also give a description of yourself and give the phone to your family to keep on the line with them detailing what you look like. Make sure your family knows NOT to approach the officers when they arrive even if you get the prone out treatment. Wait to be approached.
Secure your weapon only if you are sure the threat is done. If the law arrives prior to you feeling the threat is over make SURE you do not in any way turn toward them until you have set your weapon down in a safe manor. Hands up, LISTEN for instructions and follow them. Things may not be all gentle and consoling until they feel they have the scene secure.
Simple, to the point statements when the law arrives and secures everything. "I felt that my family and myself were in danger of serious harm and I shot to stop the threat. I would like to get my family and myself checked out medically and have legal council present before we go any further into detail."
Make yourself notes then and there, you may forget the simple things when your mind starts absorbing the big picture.
You have to make a boiler plate for your personal specific information but this will get you close.
Yes, it would be a good idea to at least found a lawyer that deals in criminal law and if not on retainer, at least have an after hours answering service number for him. Find one you feel comfortable talking to.
June 21st, 2011 10:43 AM
For some reason this thread keeps drifting off topic every other post.
People, this thread is about one thing and one thing only: the aftermath of a shooting! If you want to debate the prudence of shooting someone with a gun drawn do so in a separate thread.
June 21st, 2011 01:45 PM
...The police arrive.
Originally Posted by DamYankee
Instruct your family that they should refer all questions to you, otherwise shut up. You are the shooter (and so the only one to be charged), they saw a man coming with a gun is all they should say, if anything... If they were shook up to the point of screaming, as it occurred, they should be no less hysterical now, and should not say anything to the police... it all happened so fast... is my husband okay? My kids are traumatized... we need to go to the hospital... I'm having a panic attack... nothing about the incident.
Holster your weapon as they pull up. ("The assault has stopped," I take this to mean the criminal is dead or nearly).
Identify yourself to police as the 911 caller as they exit their vehicle(s)... Keep your hands out in front of you, open as if you were about to push something away. (raising your hands is a bit over kill unless requested) BTW, The ambulance should be on the way as well because you requested it.
"I called for an ambulance too, is one on the way? This man came at my family and me with a gun, I think it's right there (pointing).
"I am carrying a sidearm, it is in the holster on (in, whatever - wherever). I have a permit to carry it. What would you like me to do?"
They may disarm you, they may prone you out, be prepared for this.
When they start asking questions, ask about the ambulance again if it hasn't arrived. "Boy, I'm really shook up. I was scared for my family, are they okay?" "I'm feeling really ill right now, faint, (weak whatever.)"
If they continue to ask you questions, ask about the ambulance, or ask if you can get in one if they are there... "This all happened so fast..." "He was coming at us with a gun pointed at my wife (or daughter, or me), I thought he was going to shoot us." "I feel really shaky, can my family and I go to the hospital?" I think I need to see a doctor."
These actions should get you to the hospital.... you may ride in a squad car... but you will get there... you will be seen by a doctor... the police may accompany you much of the time. You need to be relaxed, this has been a traumatic experience, you may get a sedative.
If they start asking pointed questions, or even if they sound like they are on your side... ""Boy, you're lucky, he might have shot you, one less hood on the street, thanks for that, man... what actually happened?"
You answer should be EXTREMELY LIMITED.. "He was coming at us with a gun drawn... I was afraid for my wife and kids... I'm really shook up now... It all happened so fast... I don't know what else to tell you... it's all so unclear right now.... I was really terrified he was going to shoot us... I'll be happy to cooperate fully, I just think I should get my lawyer first... Don't you?
"You don't need a lawyer, we can see that he was armed... and that you were scared, you must have been defending yourself and family, weren't you? We just want to know the facts.."
"Well, officer you're right, I was scared, but it happened so fast, I'd like to have some time to sort out the whole sequence of events, and I can't think clearly now, I'm so shook up..." I'd like to have my lawyer here... I don't understand why you're asking me all these questions..."
Then, Say no more, you're really sleepy... sedated, we hope... ask for your lawyer... call your lawyer... get your lawyer there... He is representing all of the family, none should be asked questions without his presence... and so on...
EVEN if it was a fully "righteous shoot" you shouldn't talk to the police in RE: a shooting without legal representation.
You don't know the DA, you don't know how he feels about "all these vigilantes with guns." Your lawyer does. The police are doing their job in asking you questions... but whatever you say can be used against you, and none of what you say will be used FOR you. LEO may be happy that you did this guy in... But he's also there to gather information, and if anything is slightly askew, police will tune in to that.... hopefully, he can't ask the BG any questions.
There are less conservative ways to make sure you are not prosecuted for your justifiable homicide... But realize that first off... you have committed a homicide... whether it was legally justified or not... is determined by the next step up the justice system ladder, not by the police... their JOB is to gather evidence.
Some of that evidence may be against you... 3 shell casings of yours, none of the BG's... Why did you shoot three times... why didn't you just shoot him in the leg... What do you mean you thought it was a joke at first, you couldn't believe it was a real gun... Why did you shoot if you thought it was unreal.... did you think it was a toy... he was only 16 years old... It might have been just a prank...
It could be worse!
June 21st, 2011 02:03 PM
Just an example of how things could turn against you... But still all work out in the end.
The Walgreen's shooting in Omaha... Fully justified.. In fact, one of the defender's bullets was found in the chamber of the unloaded shotgun the perp was carrying... The good guy shot at the perp, his bullet went into the barrel of the shotgun. No charges were filed...BUT, they were considered because the GG's permit was not correct in some way for Omaha city limits...
Here's a link to the story including an interview that took place...>>>click<<<
It could be worse!
June 21st, 2011 05:09 PM
IIRC, Ayoob's list goes something like this:
"Officer, that man attacked me. I will sign a complaint." (I want to say there's a request for the attacker's arrest, but can't remember. I remember about signing the complaint.)
"There is evidence, there are witnesses."
"I will answer all of your questions after I have consulted with my attorney."
Ayoob has five steps specifically. I always end up condensing it to three or four in memory.
June 21st, 2011 08:25 PM
Just happened to run across this today (bolding is mine):
Kevin L. Jamison
A suspect has the absolute right to an attorney at any step in the criminal justice system
under the sixth (and fourteenth) amendment to the U.S. Constitution. No matter how innocent the citizen might be, no matter how knowledgeable, an attorney is required.
For a layman to search for justice in the thickets of the law is akin to going on safari without equipment, with no idea of what the game looks like and no guide where game might be found.
It could be worse!
June 21st, 2011 10:56 PM
Thanks again for all the info. The Walgreen vid was also extremly informative. But honestly I have to say,the reason I asked the question is because I am more concerned about what happens afterwards than the scenerio before bullets leave the barrel. Seriously, I think my previous home" The Peoples Republic of Illinois" made me .....well Gun Shy. It may take me awhile to get comfortable with the fact that I can protect myself using leathal force if necesary as opposed to having to jumping out of a second story window in my own home to avoid harming a home invader.
June 22nd, 2011 07:50 AM
Interesting exchanges but one thing comes out of them real quickly. There seem to be replies that are not reading what the thread writer actually wrote and, in reading his comments, what he really meant but did not get across very well. There is the old motto of "you can't stand the heat stay out of the kitchen" and you can say that about anyone who wishes to start a thread or reply. I'm far from perfect and have had my share of lousy replies, arguments and cautions but, as the thread writer said, he is just looking for comments, not critique of his writing style or lack of explaining himself in words--cordial replies that add to the discourse are what he is looking for, not questions that border on written abuse. Just sayin.
June 22nd, 2011 10:13 AM
What they said: oakchas and CR Williams
June 22nd, 2011 11:01 AM
June 22nd, 2011 11:16 AM
In the Gravest Extreme: the Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection by Massad Ayoob
A classic, over 20 years old but still valuable in every sense of the word... worth reading once or twice (or a dozen times).
Even in Illinois, errr... State of Chicago.... Somebody with sense passed a law that allowed for self defense with an unregistered weapon... as long as the shoot was righteous. So you really didn't have to jump out of that 2nd story window.
You'll certainly breathe easier in the Republic of Texas.
It could be worse!
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