Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today.

This is a discussion on Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by KindOfBlue What is your employer's policy on shoplifting and theft? Call the police with vehicle description/plate #. On handling situations where you ...

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Thread: Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today.

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    What is your employer's policy on shoplifting and theft? Call the police with vehicle description/plate #.
    On handling situations where you suspect it's occuring? Pump stop the subject and go outside to confront him, call the police.
    What's his position on carry or any personal weapons? All for it!
    Interesting...if you've stopped the pump & called police, why is it recommended that you confront the person? What are you supposed to do "in that confrontation?" Has your employer specified? Has he thought it through?

    I'm glad he supports you carrying...that's good news. But I dont see it ever being brought into play (legally) over stoplen gas or property. I'm glad you have it for your own defense and hope that you never have to use it
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Tried going to prepay only for a week...a bunch of regular ol' timers complained. Crazy boss switched it back to non-prepay only, 24/7. Unheard of in these days!
    I can understand your thoughts. Let's look at it this way. You are willing to risk your life, freedom, and entire future to protect gas that belongs to someone that won't take basic security precautions to protect his own gas.

    This could be taken as you initiated the conflict. This might be used against you if you had to use your weapon in self defense. I can hear a antigun prosecutor saying “It’s obvious that you went out of the safety of the store to attack and even kill this poor innocent customer, you even went as far as unsnapping your holster to make your attack faster.”
    MadMac likes this.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    "....If he would have advanced on me any further, I would have drawn my weapon and kept it pointed at the ground...."

    If this point had come, you would have drawn on what appeared to be an unarmed person with no apparent disparity of force in a situation that you instigated. Then what if he continued advancing? Then what would you have done? Never pull it (even if your intent is not to use it) unless its use is clearly justified. Someone will call your bluff and you're toast.

    Nothing good could possibly come from that. That's not putting yourself in a very good legally defensible position IMO. The kinds of details that DAs get real excited about.
    bds9009 likes this.
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  5. #19
    New Member Array flintheart's Avatar
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    Yeah using weapon should always be the last choice. Pointing weapon at some unarmed civilian is wrong. This can cost you but yes it also depends upon the laws in your state that whether you are allowed to use weapon in such cases. Any ways I don't think so. Claude is right that a single bullet can cost you much later.

  6. #20
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    You know, store policy and manager's stand on 2A mean nothing in court.
    The justification of lethal force in self-defense mainly means that you didn't wade into a more dangerous situation than you had to do - that you understand continuum of force and the line between having to escalate and not having to escalate. Could you have snapped the candid and kept your mouth shut not acknowledging the punk and walked back to the register where you would have a greater position of self-defense than in the parking lot?
    In some states, like TX or TN, and maybe it's Castle Doctrine as you say that you have in MI, a person has no obligation to back down in protecting property. IOW, one may go to protect property and if the BG goes ballistic with lethal force then there's justification in lethal force in self defense. I suggest that you ask a lawyer or at least start reading case law particularly regarding protecting business property that you don't personally own. Your boss may be all for your risking your life to protect his property while your neck is out on a legal limb.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    As a side note, once you draw on a person that has displayed no weapon and the argument has only been verbal or even shoving to that point YOU are now the one introducing deadly force into a situation and you quite likely are giving the other person legal justification to use deadly force to protect themselves.

    You don't draw to stop the threat you shoot to stop the threat. Drawing with the intent of intimidation is a bad course of action. If your gun comes out it should only be with the initial intent of shooting to stop the threat. That's not to say that you draw, the guy turns gazelle and leaves that you should still shoot but the plan should be to shoot, not bluff.

    You rarely know the capabilities of an opponent on the street. They may not be the least bit trained or they may be your worst nightmare. You may have the initial advantage but all situations are fluid and you could be on the loosing side real quick.

    You are not a law enforcement officer and hence you are only allowed to meet what ever level of force with like force.

    Sure glad you had the wherewithal to not escalate things and kept your head!

    Every day you learn is a great day.

  8. #22
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    You know, store policy and manager's stand on 2A mean nothing in court.
    The justification of lethal force in self-defense mainly means that you didn't wade into a more dangerous situation than you had to do - that you understand continuum of force and the line between having to escalate and not having to escalate. Could you have snapped the candid and kept your mouth shut not acknowledging the punk and walked back to the register where you would have a greater position of self-defense than in the parking lot?
    In some states, like TX or TN, and maybe it's Castle Doctrine as you say that you have in MI, a person has no obligation to back down in protecting property. IOW, one may go to protect property and if the BG goes ballistic with lethal force then there's justification in lethal force in self defense. I suggest that you ask a lawyer or at least start reading case law particularly regarding protecting business property that you don't personally own. Your boss may be all for your risking your life to protect his property while your neck is out on a legal limb.
    Castle Law says any place you are legally allowed to be it applies...I'd be protecting myself, not the property. Honestly, I don't care about the money in the drawer, it's when my personal safety comes into jeopardy.
    He did initiate the contact, not I... I just simply took the picture and then he asked me what I was doing (sorry if I left that part out earlier)
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I apologize if all of this is sounding harsh. It is not meant to be coming down on you. My time on this site has opened my eyes to what carrying a firearm is really all about and hopefully you will gain that same perspective.

    It is about avoidance, de-escalation, getting out of dodge, and having the right tools for the right situation. I always carry pepper spray with my firearm. If it enables me to get away without putting myself and family through years of legal battles and fees associated with pulling a trigger, then that is a successful deployment of the right tool. That's all you really needed in your situation based on what we know.

    I'm no expert, but there are thousands of years of collective experience on this site and these fine folks are willing and glad to share their wisdom and experience. It is invaluable. I hope you hang around and check it out.
    KindOfBlue likes this.
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  10. #24
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    As a side note, once you draw on a person that has displayed no weapon and the argument has only been verbal or even shoving to that point YOU are now the one introducing deadly force into a situation and you quite likely are giving the other person legal justification to use deadly force to protect themselves.

    You don't draw to stop the threat you shoot to stop the threat. Drawing with the intent of intimidation is a bad course of action. If your gun comes out it should only be with the initial intent of shooting to stop the threat. That's not to say that you draw, the guy turns gazelle and leaves that you should still shoot but the plan should be to shoot, not bluff.

    You rarely know the capabilities of an opponent on the street. They may not be the least bit trained or they may be your worst nightmare. You may have the initial advantage but all situations are fluid and you could be on the loosing side real quick.

    You are not a law enforcement officer and hence you are only allowed to meet what ever level of force with like force.

    Sure glad you had the wherewithal to not escalate things and kept your head!

    Every day you learn is a great day.
    Very informative, exactly why I posted. Thank you for your response!
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    A draw is much different than a shot fired, but it sounds like they're more similar than I thought. Always thought that warrant the circumstances of confronting a known thief and being threatened with violence would be enough for it if need be, but I'm glad it didn't get that far, trust me!
    Yes, there is a difference, but that difference may be interpreted differently from state to state.

    In some states, drawing a firearm is considered brandishing or assault with a deadly weapon while actually FIRING the gun is lethal force. If you read some of the NRA's publications you will find that a VAST number of encounters are ended just with the mere presence of a firearm (the draw). But those people who drew usually are entirely justified with no provocation and if forced to fire they would be justified in doing so.

    Others have already made some observations about how it could seem as though you were the instigator, etc.

    You obviously want to put a stop to someone stealing for the company though, of course, the best way to do that would be through pre-pay. Apparently you have no control over that. I think if your boss is serious about not loosing money he will tell the "good ol' boys" to lighten up and get with the times and switch to prepay so as not to put his employees at unnecessary risk as they try to go out and identify thieves.

    So you go out there to get the picture of his license plate. Fine. But that should have been all you did... take the picture and go back inside. You accused him of stealing gas and even though you may have been right about it being him you may also have been wrong. Perhaps it was the same car but a different driver. I don't know. Either way, it was your accusation that got him angry and made him come after you and that is where you would have a hard time justifying lethal force. Yes, you were where you were supposed to be. You did what you were supposed to do by taking a picture of the plate but YOU escalated things by accusing the man of stealing.

    Had you not done that and just gone back inside and waited to see what happened you probably wouldn't have a story to post here tonight. The guy probably would have gotten into his car and left (hopefully after paying) and if he didn't you would finally have something to give the police (the photo), including a description of the driver.

    But, you did.. and now you have a guy coming after you with balled fists. That's not good. I don't know you. I don't know your level of training. I don't know how legitimate of a claim you would have for disparity of force or what the outcome would have been had you actually felt you had to draw. It may have ended okay. You may have ended up in court. I know you would have a lot of explaining to do on why you felt you needed to confront the guy because you know his story would be, "I'm just out there getting gas and this guy comes out and takes pictures of me and my car and tells me I'm stealing and I go over there to talk to him about it and he just pulls a gun on me and threatens to shoot me!"

    See how that might look bad?

    A firearm is not a confidence booster. It's not something you wear to embolden you. If anything a firearm on your person should be a reminder that you have to be extra careful about what you say and how you say it and what you do so that you can never be the one accused of starting the fight or threatening.

    Now, had you just taken the picture and gone back in the store and he came in after you threatening you then that's something else.

    Hope this little lay-person analysis makes sense.

  12. #26
    Member Array Aaron1100us's Avatar
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    Say you get into a fist fight started by other person and they discover your weapon and use it on you? Is is worse to draw and deter or to get shot with your own weapon? Too bad we can't defend ourselves as well as Law Enforcement. That can brandish whenever they want and not get in trouble.

  13. #27
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1100us View Post
    Say you get into a fist fight started by other person and they discover your weapon and use it on you? Is is worse to draw and deter or to get shot with your own weapon? Too bad we can't defend ourselves as well as Law Enforcement. That can brandish whenever they want and not get in trouble.
    Exactly what I was thinking. If a fist-fight started, and he somehow dropped me, he very well might see my weapon, at which point (trying to think like a criminal here), he'd rip it off me and potentially use it against me. There's no way I'm gonna get shot with my own gun.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Very informative and exactly why I posted this. Thank you!

    I've read all the laws in the book...here in MI we have Castle Law, which would take care of me not backing down. Lethal force is allowed when you are in fear of death, serious injury, or sexual assault here in MI. There's a difference between drawing and firing, and both are a deliberate action. Definitely not saying I would have shot the guy...it would take a lot more then fear of a fistfight for that to happen!
    Apparently you did not read the Castle Law very closely as you would have realized it only applies to your home, car, and business that you own. It would not however cover you from shooting someone in an incident that you instigated. You gotta react the same way you would armed as you would unarmed. Before doing something rash, stop and think, would I do this if I were not armed. If the answer is no, you ought not to do it while armed. Pepper spray would still land you with some kind of charge seeing as how you started the incident. Had you went out, taken a picture and came back in, then reported him to the police when he drove off without paying then you would have been better off and maybe he would have gone to jail. If he had followed you inside, you inform him you have seen him stealing gas in the past and wanted his plate number for future reference. Had you done that and broke off the initial contact and made him chase you, that would fulfill any duty to retreat law or common sense law. If you do something and leave, then they pursue you it is a different incident. This is how this should have played out. "I walked outside to take a picture of his plate for future reference as I had seen him stealing gas in the past. I then turned around and walked inside to wait for him to drive off without paying and called police. (alternate version) Once I got inside he followed me in cursing and asking me what I was doing. I informed him I had seen him pump and run before and was calling the police. He then started towards me. I reached into my pocket for my pepper spray and told him to think again and that any attack on me would be on camera and recorded for police. He swore and left without getting gas." See this way you avoid a lethal force encounter, you have a camera showing him attacking you, and you do not have thousands of dollars in legal fees to pay for shooting an unarmed man in an encounter you started.
    KindOfBlue likes this.
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  15. #29
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    That's why you avoid, de-escalate, and carry a non-lethal option. A person can't catch what they can't see.


    How successful do you really think the "what if I got in a fight and the guy took my gun" defense would be? The legal system doesn't operate on what ifs, it operates on the what was.
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  16. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron1100us View Post
    Say you get into a fist fight started by other person and they discover your weapon and use it on you? Is is worse to draw and deter or to get shot with your own weapon? Too bad we can't defend ourselves as well as Law Enforcement. That can brandish whenever they want and not get in trouble.
    As stated in the above post, there are a number of people who have justifiably drew a firearm to preempt an attack and not had a problem. Of course avoiding the situation all together is the best option of them all.

    And to say Law Enforcement can brandish whenever they want and not get in trouble is simply incorrect. LEOs have to give account for themselves as well.

    BTW, this thread is NOT about law enforcement. This is about the OP and what happened to him. If I see any more comments about law enforcement, etc. The thread will be at least cleaned up, if not closed and infractions for hijacking given.

    You've all been warned!

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