Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today.

This is a discussion on Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Siddhartha In Indiana you can get 15 years for snapping a picture or video taping a cop (the same sentence you get ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddhartha View Post
    In Indiana you can get 15 years for snapping a picture or video taping a cop (the same sentence you get for rape). .
    They passed this in Indiana? How can this be? They want to do that here...to me this is THE MOST INCREDIBLE slap in the face of the Constitution!

    I dont mean to hijack the thread, but I hadnt heard that this had been passed anywhere yet. I have no idea how they can get this past state or federal court challenges. I hope to see it go down in flames.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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  3. #62
    Member Array Siddhartha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    They passed this in Indiana? How can this be? They want to do that here...to me this is THE MOST INCREDIBLE slap in the face of the Constitution!

    I dont mean to hijack the thread, but I hadnt heard that this had been passed anywhere yet. I have no idea how they can get this past state or federal court challenges. I hope to see it go down in flames.
    I am looking for the article, they used it on a guy who had a helmet cam while riding his motorcycle. A UC stopped him and drew his weapon without identifying himself as a police officer, when he tried to produce the video as evidence they charged him. Yes I agree it is a great miscarriage of justice. I had it on my blog, but blogger lost or deleted a great deal of my articles a few weeks ago and I didn't back it up. I will find it though.

    Just to hijack a little bit more, I gotta go to bed since I gotta wake up in 4 hours and drive up to Tacoma, WA in the morning.
    “Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.” Han Solo

  4. #63
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    I wasn't even close to making that decision about someone's life. Far from it.
    I can't see how snapping a picture of a thief for evidence purposes is considered a crime anywhere!
    When one makes the decision to draw a firearm for personal protection, the decision is already made, you either are forced to use it or have it used on you. You yourself stated that you almost had to draw, what then. Draw and have him say your not gonna shoot me, then come towards you, you either prove him right and get your butt whipped and possibly shot, or you shoot him and go to jail. Snapping a picture in some areas is considered a violation of privacy, this is different from a security camera because you intentionally singled that person out to snap a photo of their plate. You had no proof this was the guy in your hands, you have no access to that prove and the owner should have been with you at the time to call police. Your CCW is not a license to fight crime nor is it an automatic cape that provides you with superpowers. I actually did read your castle doctrine, any place you are legally entitled to be is only when not committing a crime, instigating a fight would have been a crime since you started a incident with your need to play parking lot patrol and snap his license plate, then accuse him of stealing. And you can not honestly expect us to believe that you walked outside sideways so as to hide your gun from him the whole time you were out there. I am sure that blading your body helped at the time but when that shows up on camera you are taking an offensive stance straight away with your hand on your gun. PS, in many jurisdictions thats a menacing charge. So now we have invasion of privacy, a civil offense you can be sued for, disorderly conduct since you provoked the man into a reaction, and we have menacing since you bladed your body, snapped a picture and then started wildly accusing a complete stranger of theft all the while with your hand on your gun. If I were a DA I would have such a field day with that case its not even funny. You have to be very mindful of your actions when CC'ing, and even more so when OC'ing. I really would like to see the high resolution security cameras that you used to ID this man, seeing as how you can make an ID, but not catch a tag as he drives in or out. You really should seek out some training, and read a few of Mas Ayoobs books. Just trying to be helpful. You may think I am flaming you, but this is how I learned.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  5. #64
    Member Array Siddhartha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    They passed this in Indiana? How can this be? They want to do that here...to me this is THE MOST INCREDIBLE slap in the face of the Constitution!

    I dont mean to hijack the thread, but I hadnt heard that this had been passed anywhere yet. I have no idea how they can get this past state or federal court challenges. I hope to see it go down in flames.
    I am looking for the article, they used it on a guy who had a helmet cam while riding his motorcycle. A UC stopped him and drew his weapon without identifying himself as a police officer, when he tried to produce the video as evidence they charged him. Yes I agree it is a great miscarriage of justice. I had it on my blog, but blogger lost or deleted a great deal of my articles a few weeks ago and I didn't back it up. I will find it though.

    Just to hijack a little bit more, I gotta go to bed since I gotta wake up in 4 hours and drive up to Tacoma, WA in the morning.
    “Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.” Han Solo

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siddhartha View Post
    drive up to Tacoma, WA in the morning.
    Oh, I'm sorry
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Very informative and exactly why I posted this. Thank you!

    I've read all the laws in the book...here in MI we have Castle Law, which would take care of me not backing down. Lethal force is allowed when you are in fear of death, serious injury, or sexual assault here in MI. There's a difference between drawing and firing, and both are a deliberate action. Definitely not saying I would have shot the guy...it would take a lot more then fear of a fistfight for that to happen!
    There you go. You just answered your own question! You would not have been justified in drawing your weapon!

    If a prosecutor wrangled you into saying that in court, you would have kissed your butt bye-bye.

    The gun should not even come out unless you fear death or crippling injury is imminent. And I would say that the overwhelming majority of fist fights do not end in crippling injury. There isn't a court in the land that doesn't generally frown on shooting unarmed people. Even if you are not a good fighter and don't want to get into a fist fight is not a sufficient cause to shoot someone who is otherwise unarmed.

    That is not to say that once in the middle of an unarmed fist fight, circumstances change to where use of lethal force may be justified. For example, if the aggressor effectively beats you down, and you fall on the ground and instead of walking away, the aggressor now starts to stomp you into oblivion and begins kicking you in the head, then things have changed considerably and lethal force at that point may be justified. But certainly not before any punches have even been thrown.

    I know you said that drawing your weapon is not the same thing as shooting him. I agree, but drawing your weapon when it clearly isn't warranted can certainly get you into a legal jam of colossal proportions. In a lot of jurisdictions it's call armed criminal action and can get you up to 5 years in prison. You can't just draw your gun to use as a shield to try and convince someone from talking smack and maybe advancing on you.

    But there are times when it also may be appropriate to do so. There are a lot of grey areas in the laws regarding use of force. And not all of them are easy to see. There's a lot of responsibility when carrying a gun, and a lot of people don't really realize all the fine nuances in the law until they find them self in the middle of a legal mess. And these aren't bad people... They just didn't understand that they were crossing over into a criminal act when they believed they were doing the right thing.

    Imagine how far your jaw would be hanging in disbelief if the guy had called the police and you got arrested for aggravated assault or armed criminal action after drawing your weapon. Then imagine how much it would cost to keep from doing a year or two or three in prison over something as simple as drawing your gun on someone who was merely talking smack and flexing his muscles.

    Btw... Welcome Aboard to the forum and thanks for posting your story. Don't hesitate in asking anything on your mind. We are all here to learn. I'm learning something all the time thanks to this forum.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Manager and owner do, but I'm pretty sure they both had something going on...detaining a suspect awaiting for video confirmation for HOURS doesn't sound too plausible.
    Wouldn't the surveilance camera have had the license plate number on it this time since it wasn't covered up? That being the case, why was it necessary to go out and take a pic of his plate? Why not just take a pic of the guy from inside and then note the time so you know what point on the surveilance tape to look for the number.

    Bottom line is you went out there and unsnapped your firearm before you ever even went outside. You still don't know if he was armed or not, so where is the belief that you were in imminent harm? You seem to have all of the answers already, so ignore the advice and then let your fate be decided by a prosecuting attorney and a jury of 12 people who were not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Let us know how that turns out.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
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  9. #68
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    Please don't take this a a pile on but you probably should go back and re read your original post. You mentioned placing your hand on the butt of the gun when he approached, what would your reaction be if he had shoved you? You have stated that you were afraid of what would happen if you got in a fight when you were armed. I think you were a lot closer to that point that you may want to believe. A little too close not to use it as a learning experience.

    Suggestion for the future, if you need to take pictures of a tag, why not say something like "Hey my first car was one of those, mind if I take a pic for my (place family member here like son) so they can see what I keep braggin about?" Now if you're REAL good you get them to step in close to the tag and get a good pic of both. Most anyone that thinks you like their ride will not even think twice about a pic if you talk it up right.
    No idea what I would have done if he shoved me.

    Thanks to everyone, I guess. I wad simply asking for what would you do in this situation, not a semi-condesending law lesson, but I appreciate it none the less.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  10. #69
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    It's very important to go over various scenarios and decide just which warrant drawing your HG. I TOTALLY empathize with the OP and how difficult it is not to use the fact that you are carrying to get respect and make people back off and so forth, but in reality, unless you're in a situation where a predator is stalking you down in the back of a 7-11 (or similar scenario) and you're cowering in a corner in fear for your life, it is NOT WORTH using a 'shooting solution' for most problems. Back down, apologize, evade, escape, go back inside and call 911 and report this mofo as having threatened a BUSINESS PROPRIETOR - the cops take a dim view of this shite and will back you up.

    BTW, were you Open carrying and did he see the HG on you in the holster? Confused.

    To add, even if the guy didn't DO anything, advancing with closed fists, making you fearful of a confrontation may make the cops agree to go 'talk to him'. In fact, if you have his license, I'd report it now.

    Good luck!

  11. #70
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Not to worry, not taking this wrong at all.

    I'm definitely not trying to prove anything to anybody, but I was just thinking under the idea that I have no legal obligation to back down, I suppose. In a way I wanted to show him that trying to scare me won't work, and that he shouldn't be doing what he's doing there, we don't welcome it. He's stolen about $400 worth of gas from the company. Not in a hostile way though. I'm not about to brandish a firearm just to scare someone off, that's stupid.

    You were proving your point that you will stand your ground and avoid being intimidated. Its ok to be scared. Scared shows your internal risk control mechanism works. Scared turns into a tactical problem when you FREEZE allowing bad guy free reign to damage/kill you or when it creates excessive levels of paranoia that affects their legal/tactical judgement on preemptive use of lethal force.

    Train to Find and Maintain your own balance which changes with experience and training. I notice this in myself.




    You are an employee. You dont own the store and have little vested monetary interest in the overall profitability of the store other than getting your paycheck.

    You have an ENORMOUS vested interest, by comparison, in your own personal safety and staying perfectly healthy.

    What makes you want to take on the level of risk of the business owner and confront this guy for employee pay?

    That same guy comes in the store, with a lethal weapon, and threatens your life in an aggravated robbery or now wants to hurt you because of your confrontation outside -AND Michigan law allow you/considers you reasonable to use lethal force to defend yourself (I know nothing of Michigan law) -BANG BANG BANG....neutralize perp into the ground until he stops moving or pointing his weapon towards you; do as your tactics dictate in the moment to keep you safe and going home at the end of your shift. Train to do it SO FAST that he never/barely sees it coming.

    Or give the money and avoid drawing....your personal tactical choice.

    IMO: You work at a C-Store. I watch robberies and shootings all the time on Crime TV and Youtube that occur at C-Stores. I suggest you concern yourself with when Perps come to you inside the store and TRAIN with quality tactical instructors, including airsoft FoF, on a few different game plans...that range from getting off the X gunfight to feigned compliance/counterambush to full initial compliance/run to locked back room/draw from there/shoot through the door if perp tries to get in. All three neutralize the threat in different ways.

    Know exactly what you legally need to see to go lethal; What things do you need to see that gives you the emotional green light to use lethal force/begin self defense tactics - even initial non lethal self defense tactics if ambushed? What do these events look like? Are you emotionally OK to use lethal force? How do you know? Can you train to know?

    Remember: Neutralize the threat is a very powerful foundation that gives OPTIONS and flexibility to stay "safe." Neutralization is way more than just a legal definition. It is a tactical organizing framework in a fluid, "chaotic" self defense event.

    Map out the C-Store accurately and take to the instructor. Bring him to the store. I have a very hard time thinking of a better way to spend self defense dollars, other than finding a less dangerous place to work.

    You work in a C-store. Avoid confrontation outside the store. The confrontation will find you, will come to you - likely multiple times - in your C-Store career.

    Train for THAT, NOW.

    I respect you for working there. I couldnt. Pretending I did, I would train like hell and spend money on quality "concealable" body armor.


    PS: Get a QUALITY Attorney NOW. You need to set yourself up - tactically legally. If you need help defining a quality attorney...what to look for, I suggest PM'ing MitchellCT. He is one.


    PPS: In your confrontation OP - and leaving aside the right/wrong of going to an initial non-threat - you stated that you would have drawn and kept gun at low ready if he kept coming at you. How far away would he have to be for you to do that? Or conversely, how close does he have to be with your skill level where that becomes very retention-dangerous to you? Please explain your distance tactics of low ready versus straight drawdown/indexing on an advancing threat.

    Legally, are you allowed to index without shooting? Texas is a yes and deems it a use of force versus lethal force so long as I have legal right to be there, mind own business, and not engaged in a certain level of illegal act:

    § 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of
    force is justified when the use of force is justified by this
    chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or
    serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as
    long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension
    that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the
    use of deadly force.
    Last edited by TVJ; June 21st, 2011 at 11:10 AM. Reason: detail
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  12. #71
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    There's not much I can say that won't sound like just piling on, but I don't understand the mindset that you have. If the station owner/manager has made a determination that they don't want to inconvenience some 1950's retreads with prepay, and will risk the loss of revenue from drive-offs, that's their risk decision, not yours. You need to accept it and move on. When you own the station, you can make a different decision.

    It's not your gas, your revenue, or your property. Absolutely NONE of it worth the risk to your life or freedom. You're a wage slave; in this case, thinking outside the box isn't a good idea.

    You attempt to justify your dramatic response by claiming someone told you he was a drug dealer, hence he may be carrying a knife. That's complete conjecture on your part. Nothing based on fact. You're simply projecting, and perhaps hoping this justifies your unnecessary and reckless instigation of this confrontation.

    In fact, you admit he was doing nothing that could be considered illegal. You walked out to start a confrontation based on what he (or someone who looked like him) may have done previously. This is quite simply mall ninja/LEO-wannabe nonsense.

    If I were you, I'd lock up my handgun until I: a) learn some self-discipline, b) get some training and c) obtain legal advice.
    Last edited by MadMac; June 21st, 2011 at 12:12 PM.
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  13. #72
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    I have a very hard time thinking of a better way to spend self defense dollars, other than finding a less dangerous place to work.
    th_Joker-Clapping.gif

  14. #73
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    Well after reading these posts I am going to turn in my guns at the next turn in.
    KindaBlue, I think you did OK all things considered. You made a few errors. You found out you need some training and experince. I have a few years carrying and have found out a lot through training and street experinces. I have drawn on people but not to intimidate. I was ready to fire. The last time was this summer when people tried to enter my motel room. I warned I was armed. They stopped. Found out it was a night clerk who didn't realize the room was occupied and rented it out. Still called police and raized hell with the owner. Glad I didn't shoot. Use your brain first. It is your best weapon.
    Welcome aboard and good luck
    Semper Fi

  15. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    Found out it was a night clerk who didn't realize the room was occupied and rented it out. Still called police and raized hell with the owner. Glad I didn't shoot.
    Overreact much?

    99.9999% of the time if someone rattles your hotel/motel doorknob, it's usually a mistake or an employee, and not a violent criminal. I travel tens of thousands of miles a year, and usually spend well over 100 nights per year in hotels. I have never cleared leather in a hotel, nor ever felt the need to do so. I have never had to shout through the door that I was armed. These mistakes are quite common.

    When you enter your room, simply bolt the door and swing over the mechanical door latch. No one is going to be able to force their way in easily and without giving you plenty of time to deploy your weapon.

    If you stay in down-market flea bags and seedy roadside motels, invest in a simple mechanical door stop, and use it every time you are in the room. It's certainly much easier and cheaper to deal with these minor disturbances with a quick call to the front desk. It also beats blasting holes through the door to find out you were defending yourself from a road-weary family or chambermaid given a mistaken room assignment.

    You turned a minor inconvenience into a risky BIG DEAL by simply overreacting to a common and predictable occurrence.
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  16. #75
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    If you carry a firearm for self protection having an alternative to deadly force should be part of your carry gear.

    Hands on training, impact weapon (if allowed in your jurisdiction) or a self defense spray (again if allowed in your jurisdiction) with proper training should be strongly considered.
    glockman10mm likes this.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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