Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today. - Page 6

Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today.

This is a discussion on Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; MadMac, I was in a quality hotel chain. The door was locked and bolted. There was repeated attempts to force the door. There was no ...

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  1. #76
    Senior Member Array BkCo1's Avatar
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    MadMac, I was in a quality hotel chain. The door was locked and bolted. There was repeated attempts to force the door. There was no response till I informed them I was armed. It was 1am. I was not over reacting. I was reacting to the situation. I alway secure my dwellings and protect my rear end.
    Semper Fi


  2. #77
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Bullseye View Post
    As a side note, once you draw on a person that has displayed no weapon and the argument has only been verbal or even shoving to that point YOU are now the one introducing deadly force into a situation and you quite likely are giving the other person legal justification to use deadly force to protect themselves.

    You don't draw to stop the threat you shoot to stop the threat. Drawing with the intent of intimidation is a bad course of action. If your gun comes out it should only be with the initial intent of shooting to stop the threat. That's not to say that you draw, the guy turns gazelle and leaves that you should still shoot but the plan should be to shoot, not bluff.
    You rarely know the capabilities of an opponent on the street. They may not be the least bit trained or they may be your worst nightmare. You may have the initial advantage but all situations are fluid and you could be on the loosing side real quick.

    You are not a law enforcement officer and hence you are only allowed to meet what ever level of force with like force.

    Sure glad you had the wherewithal to not escalate things and kept your head!

    Every day you learn is a great day.
    I'm wanting to add only on the bold--NC said it all so well...but to drive it home even more so:

    the longer you have a gun out of its holster --and not even pointed at him--the longer he has to think 'I'm gonna inch closer and take the gun from him and...."
    he is a stranger who you believe steals...have you knowledge of his physical skills or mindset?---NO.
    also once a gun comes out, its hard to put away: i mean not 'use it or lose it' ( but there is that too),
    I'm thinking that the longer it is out the less threating it becomes to the BG. after all, you have not shot him yet and he is still standing there.
    and its not like you can put it away...cause he is still standing there; so what good is holding it in your hand doing ua?
    time is not your friend, some one calls in a MWG or the police drive in--you've likely just forfeited your permit.

    you must pull with the intent of shooting ( he will know if you are bluffing)...and if he runs--all the better. re holster and call 911.
    Last edited by claude clay; June 21st, 2011 at 02:44 PM.
    KindOfBlue likes this.
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  3. #78
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Wouldn't the surveilance camera have had the license plate number on it this time since it wasn't covered up? That being the case, why was it necessary to go out and take a pic of his plate? Why not just take a pic of the guy from inside and then note the time so you know what point on the surveilance tape to look for the number.

    Bottom line is you went out there and unsnapped your firearm before you ever even went outside. You still don't know if he was armed or not, so where is the belief that you were in imminent harm? You seem to have all of the answers already, so ignore the advice and then let your fate be decided by a prosecuting attorney and a jury of 12 people who were not smart enough to get out of jury duty. Let us know how that turns out.
    Unfortunately, the cameras set up outside aren't detailed enough to get a plate number. They really don't have them set up well. If I knew we could have grabbed the plate # from the footage, I wouldn't have gone outside at all
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  4. #79
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    BTW, were you Open carrying and did he see the HG on you in the holster? Confused.

    To add, even if the guy didn't DO anything, advancing with closed fists, making you fearful of a confrontation may make the cops agree to go 'talk to him'. In fact, if you have his license, I'd report it now.

    Good luck!
    I was oc'ing at 5:30 position, strong side. When he advanced on me, I pulled my hand down, but he couldn't see anything. Also, I neglected to mention he was wearing tight pants, I could see a buldge in his pocket consistant with that of a switchblade/pocket knife.
    License plate # has been turned over to my manager, she'll handle it now!
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  5. #80
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Unfortunately, the cameras set up outside aren't detailed enough to get a plate number. They really don't have them set up well. If I knew we could have grabbed the plate # from the footage, I wouldn't have gone outside at all
    Unless you are a cop, or a security guard, none of this matters to you or your job. Where in your job description does it say you should confront customers that may or may not have stolen gas on a previous visit?

    If you were going to record his license plate while he's doing nothing illegal, you could have easily walked out past his car on the way to a far pump, surreptitiously noted his license number (without raising any fuss), and returned to your post to write it down. You then had only to turn over this information to the manager, and let him/her deal with it any way they choose.

    No confrontation. No potential legal hassles. No problems.

    But, that's just the way I like living my life.

    A gun doesn't make you a cop. Tracking down thieves is police work.

  6. #81
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    You were proving your point that you will stand your ground and avoid being intimidated. Its ok to be scared. Scared shows your internal risk control mechanism works. Scared turns into a tactical problem when you FREEZE allowing bad guy free reign to damage/kill you or when it creates excessive levels of paranoia that affects their legal/tactical judgement on preemptive use of lethal force.

    Train to Find and Maintain your own balance which changes with experience and training. I notice this in myself.




    You are an employee. You dont own the store and have little vested monetary interest in the overall profitability of the store other than getting your paycheck.

    You have an ENORMOUS vested interest, by comparison, in your own personal safety and staying perfectly healthy.

    What makes you want to take on the level of risk of the business owner and confront this guy for employee pay?

    That same guy comes in the store, with a lethal weapon, and threatens your life in an aggravated robbery or now wants to hurt you because of your confrontation outside -AND Michigan law allow you/considers you reasonable to use lethal force to defend yourself (I know nothing of Michigan law) -BANG BANG BANG....neutralize perp into the ground until he stops moving or pointing his weapon towards you; do as your tactics dictate in the moment to keep you safe and going home at the end of your shift. Train to do it SO FAST that he never/barely sees it coming.

    Or give the money and avoid drawing....your personal tactical choice.

    IMO: You work at a C-Store. I watch robberies and shootings all the time on Crime TV and Youtube that occur at C-Stores. I suggest you concern yourself with when Perps come to you inside the store and TRAIN with quality tactical instructors, including airsoft FoF, on a few different game plans...that range from getting off the X gunfight to feigned compliance/counterambush to full initial compliance/run to locked back room/draw from there/shoot through the door if perp tries to get in. All three neutralize the threat in different ways.

    Know exactly what you legally need to see to go lethal; What things do you need to see that gives you the emotional green light to use lethal force/begin self defense tactics - even initial non lethal self defense tactics if ambushed? What do these events look like? Are you emotionally OK to use lethal force? How do you know? Can you train to know?

    Remember: Neutralize the threat is a very powerful foundation that gives OPTIONS and flexibility to stay "safe." Neutralization is way more than just a legal definition. It is a tactical organizing framework in a fluid, "chaotic" self defense event.

    Map out the C-Store accurately and take to the instructor. Bring him to the store. I have a very hard time thinking of a better way to spend self defense dollars, other than finding a less dangerous place to work.

    You work in a C-store. Avoid confrontation outside the store. The confrontation will find you, will come to you - likely multiple times - in your C-Store career.

    Train for THAT, NOW.

    I respect you for working there. I couldnt. Pretending I did, I would train like hell and spend money on quality "concealable" body armor.


    PS: Get a QUALITY Attorney NOW. You need to set yourself up - tactically legally. If you need help defining a quality attorney...what to look for, I suggest PM'ing MitchellCT. He is one.


    PPS: In your confrontation OP - and leaving aside the right/wrong of going to an initial non-threat - you stated that you would have drawn and kept gun at low ready if he kept coming at you. How far away would he have to be for you to do that? Or conversely, how close does he have to be with your skill level where that becomes very retention-dangerous to you? Please explain your distance tactics of low ready versus straight drawdown/indexing on an advancing threat.

    Legally, are you allowed to index without shooting? Texas is a yes and deems it a use of force versus lethal force so long as I have legal right to be there, mind own business, and not engaged in a certain level of illegal act:
    Thank you for your in-depth response! I appreciate the detail you took the time to address. I honestly couldn't care less about the money in the drawer. At the salary I make, it's a non-issue to me. It's insured too, I'm sure. I just interpreted the situation as doing my job, but when he advanced on me, it became an issue of protecting my personal health...all work-related thoughts were completely out of my head.
    We've got a back room that's perfect cover for the situation you described, and that would definitely be my course of action if something ever happened.
    As far as distancing with low-ready, I'd feel confident at very close range retention. I wouldn't bring up to indexed unless I absolutely had to. Can't absolutely say what I would have done, because the situation is passed, and experiencing the situation in real-time might warrant a different response than what I'd say I would do or would have done.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  7. #82
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    There's not much I can say that won't sound like just piling on, but I don't understand the mindset that you have. If the station owner/manager has made a determination that they don't want to inconvenience some 1950's retreads with prepay, and will risk the loss of revenue from drive-offs, that's their risk decision, not yours. You need to accept it and move on. When you own the station, you can make a different decision.

    It's not your gas, your revenue, or your property. Absolutely NONE of it worth the risk to your life or freedom. You're a wage slave; in this case, thinking outside the box isn't a good idea.

    You attempt to justify your dramatic response by claiming someone told you he was a drug dealer, hence he may be carrying a knife. That's complete conjecture on your part. Nothing based on fact. You're simply projecting, and perhaps hoping this justifies your unnecessary and reckless instigation of this confrontation.

    In fact, you admit he was doing nothing that could be considered illegal. You walked out to start a confrontation based on what he (or someone who looked like him) may have done previously. This is quite simply mall ninja/LEO-wannabe nonsense.

    If I were you, I'd lock up my handgun until I: a) learn some self-discipline, b) get some training and c) obtain legal advice.
    The only reason I even care is that it comes down on us when a scumbag does this.
    He's a known drug dealer, I've seen him sell drugs out of his car in the neighboring parking lot.
    I didn't walk out to start a confrontation, I did what I was told to do if he ever came back. He initiated contact, as I was just about to turn around and walk back inside. I would have ignored him, but I don't think that turning my back to him after taking a picture of his plate and him asking in a not-so-nice tone what I was doing would be the in the best interests of my personal safety. I wanted to continue to have eyes on him.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  8. #83
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BkCo1 View Post
    Well after reading these posts I am going to turn in my guns at the next turn in.
    KindaBlue, I think you did OK all things considered. You made a few errors. You found out you need some training and experince.
    Lol! Thank you, and I agree. Experience is something I don't really have yet.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  9. #84
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old School View Post
    If you carry a firearm for self protection having an alternative to deadly force should be part of your carry gear.

    Hands on training, impact weapon (if allowed in your jurisdiction) or a self defense spray (again if allowed in your jurisdiction) with proper training should be strongly considered.
    Definitely a good idea. Michigan is rediculous when it comes to pepper spray, I've heard, but I need to look into that. Any reccomendations? Maybe something stronger online that can't be found in stores?
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  10. #85
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    I'm wanting to add only on the bold--NC said it all so well...but to drive it home even more so:

    the longer you have a gun out of its holster --and not even pointed at him--the longer he has to think 'I'm gonna inch closer and take the gun from him and...."
    he is a stranger who you believe steals...have you knowledge of his physical skills or mindset?---NO.
    also once a gun comes out, its hard to put away: i mean not 'use it or lose it' ( but there is that too),
    I'm thinking that the longer it is out the less threating it becomes to the BG. after all, you have not shot him yet and he is still standing there.

    you must pull with the intent of shooting ( he will know if you are bluffing)...and if he runs--all the better. re holster and call 911.
    Very well said, and clears up some misconceptions I had. I appreciate it.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  11. #86
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    As to info on pepper spray, go to http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/michigan.pdf and get the PDF file for MI.

    There is a full page that discusses the use of OC and chemical spray. The restrictions in a nutshell say no spray with greater than 10% OC or a percent of another substance. Go with a brand like Fox Labs 5.3 or Sabre Red. Both should be fine for your state. They get real ugly if you use it for non self defense purposes (as they should) but it's legal to use "a self-defense spray or foam device containing not more than 10% oleoresin capsicum by a person in the protection of a person or property under circumstances that would justify the person’s use of physical force."

    I teach that anyone that gets this to get 2 options, first the flip top since it's the most forgivable for pocket carry or purse and second, get the cone pattern spray not the stream. Unless you practice on a regular basis with the stream it's difficult to get the stream where you want in on the face of the bad guy if you and he are both moving. The cone is far easier to do so. The blow back is not much more than the stream and near the same on distance the streams travel. I also recommend the MK3 2oz size for carry and the MK5 4oz size to have around the workplace or home when answering the door or to keep bed side

    The biggest thing to remember, do NOT stand around and watch the show as fun as it may be. Get away and call the law. First caller is usually the good guy.

    Good luck and kudos on your trial by fire.
    Old School likes this.

  12. #87
    Senior Member Array Skeeter64's Avatar
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    Thanks to the OP for posting this question. In spite of the of the stuff you had piled on you, this was a good learning experience. There are a lot of us who have been carrying for not very long and I can say that this thread has been very informative. I'm sure that I am not the only one who learned a lot from this thread.
    KindOfBlue and MadMac like this.

  13. #88
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    I too am still learning from this thread. A couple of things are 1) while carrying, avoid agitating anyone, and 2) On drawing, like a cop, be authoritative and give good cause to be a credible threat to shoot. Both of these involve the critically mportant aspect of carrying that we call, "mindset". It is the will the fight and win.
    KindofBlue is a welcome good sport who passed the initiation to this forum with flying colors! He has my vote for employee of the month. I think you did alright keeping your weapon out of view, etc.
    I think that my sig line applies. As our esteemed retsupt might say, "be stealthy, be safe".
    KindOfBlue likes this.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  14. #89
    New Member Array ggill1970's Avatar
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    great thread. i am a noob here but i thought i would throw my .02 in on this situation. one of my hobbies the last 10 or so years has been a mix of MMA, sambo & krav, so when you wrote "this guy was big and chubby...chances are he'd be able to drop me just using his body weight." just remember that most* of the time with these big / chubby / angry guys, they will gas out after about 30-60 seconds of squaring off / smack talk. seriously, the lack of cardio & adrenaline dump that happens in the 1st 30-60 will pretty much take 50% of the fight out of these guys if you just circle w/ your hands up & wear them down verbally & mentally. "Fatigue makes cowards of us all" -- Vince Lombardi

    anyhow, glad you did the right thing & walked away unscathed.

  15. #90
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    The only reason I even care is that it comes down on us when a scumbag does this.
    He's a known drug dealer, I've seen him sell drugs out of his car in the neighboring parking lot.
    I didn't walk out to start a confrontation, I did what I was told to do if he ever came back. He initiated contact, as I was just about to turn around and walk back inside. I would have ignored him, but I don't think that turning my back to him after taking a picture of his plate and him asking in a not-so-nice tone what I was doing would be the in the best interests of my personal safety. I wanted to continue to have eyes on him.
    I'm hesitant about keeping up this dialogue, but I'm bored today....

    Here the story changes. Now you say you personally have witnessed him selling drugs out of a neighboring parking lot? Did you call the police?

    If you had drawn on him, I would have loved to be his defense attorney or the DA. Was my client doing anything illegal when you drew your gun? No? Threatening you? How? Were in fear of your life? Why? You say he was known to you as a drug dealer. Did you report him to the police? Did you verify that he was in possession of drugs? How did you know they were drugs? You saw a bulge in his tight pants? How did you know it was a knife? Etc......

    Look it, I'm not trying to be a douche, either, but I have seen dozens of posts where the guy says he felt he had to draw (or nearly did so), and as he is questioned about the facts, the "facts" slowly begin to "evolve". Some guy pumping gas (who may or may not be a drug dealer, and who may or may not have stolen some gas previously) becomes Public Enemy Number One with each new detail that's added.

    You may have wanted to keep your eye on him, but you were under no obligation to verbally spar with the guy. You could have taken the picture, and backed into the station without a word. Instead, you played the tough guy while unsnapping the retention on your carry piece after initiating a confrontation with an unarmed guy doing nothing illegal, and who was minding his own business until you showed up with your cell phone camera. Did I get it approximately right?

    "Experience is what most men call their mistakes."

    ~ Oscar Wilde

    "Only a fool learns from his own mistakes. The wise man learns from the mistakes of others."

    ~ Otto vonBismarck

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