Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today.

This is a discussion on Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I work at a gas station, and this afternoon was my 6th day carrying on the job. Was very close to drawing today. Never thought ...

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Thread: Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today.

  1. #1
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Already very glad to be carrying...almost drew at work today.

    I work at a gas station, and this afternoon was my 6th day carrying on the job. Was very close to drawing today. Never thought I'd be glad I had my gun on me this quickly.

    Today, this young punk (I'd say about 22) who's driven off without paying for gas about 3-4 times returned again. We only knew the make and model of his vehicle, as he covered his license plate up, but we were sure it was him. So, I went outside to his pump and snapped a picture of his license plate (not covered today) with my camera phone. He looked at me funny (which I expected he would), so I told him, "Oh, this is for if you ever decide to steal gas from here again. We're onto you and it wouldn't be wise to continue doing what you've been doing."
    Obviously, he denied ever doing it. He started getting very angry, yelling at me while I maintained cool & collected.
    Towards the end of this little 'confrontation' if you will, he looked at me with malice and advanced towards me quickly in a threatening way. I maintained eye contact, watching his hands and movements, while backed away from him. He raised his hands and balled them into fists. Getting into a fistfight while carrying a handgun is a big no-no in gun safety, IMO.
    Calmly, I placed my hand on the butt of my weapon, still holstered. (Before I walked out, I un-did the retention strap velcro, just in case...chances were he had some sort of knife on him, as I've heard he deals drugs, and I didn't want to play my odds). I looked straight at him and told him to get lost, before he did something stupid. He looked at me long and hard, then promptly got into his vehicle and left. Thankfully, I did not have to draw my weapon, and I made it home tonight without being injured or injuring someone else. Let me tell you though, having my handgun on me in this situation was a big reassurance; knowing that I'd be able to protect myself if I had to. Although I'm tall, I'm quite lanky, and this guy was big and chubby...chances are he'd be able to drop me just using his body weight.

    If he would have advanced on me any further, I would have drawn my weapon and kept it pointed at the ground. This is where I want advice/feedback/what would you do. If you were in my situation, and he continued advancing on you, at what point would you have drawn? Was I justified in what I did and what I would have done if he didn't cease his advance?

    Cheers!
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Let me approach this from a prosecuting attorney's perspective. On the surface, I don't see a threat to your life justifying use of lethal force. A wiley prosecuting attorney could claim that you instigated the encounter and escalated it. Once you started it, you chose not to retreat. Disparity of force may be very difficult to claim just because you are lanky and the other guy chubby. Depending on the laws of your state, some of these issues may be the deciding factor between freedom and prison for you. Understand your state's laws inside out with regard to use and justification of lethal force before you decide to carry. You will be surprised if you read actual case law. I'm just saying.

    PS: Ask yourself a few questions:

    - Do you see the other person with a deadly weapon?
    - Do you think shooting an unarmed person will end well for you legally?
    - Do you know your state's laws regarding Disparity of force?
    - Are you physically disabled in any way?
    - How valuable is $10 worth of pepper spray to avoid tens of thousands in legal fees and/or prison?
    - Is the object of SD to get out of dodge or use your firearm?
    - If your only tool is a hammer, does every problem start looking like a nail?
    - Do you think the "I had a firearm therefore getting into a physical altercation was not a good idea" defense will be successful?

    Carrying a firearm is a HUGE responsibility. You NEED to know and understand your state's (and other states you travel to) laws regarding use of lethal force. It should be your absolute last resort or you're going to die option. You need more tools at your disposal.

    This forum is a great place to start. Please read, research, and study to learn and mature in your carrying. Then look back at this thread and let us know what you think. I mean all of this with sincere concern for you and I hope it helps. Take care.
    Last edited by BugDude; June 21st, 2011 at 12:43 AM. Reason: Added more info
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array Maverickx50's Avatar
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    Don't take this wrong. I'm sure your heart was/is in the right place. Problem is your youth and enthusiasm is trying to get you in trouble. You prepared to be ready to draw several ways and times. 1st rule, main rule, last rule if you ever think you may have to draw GO THE OTHER WAY. You will never convince anybody here that $50 worth of gas is worth what you will experience if you actually point that gun at someone let alone squeeze the trigger. Your weapon must always be your very last desperate choice. not your reason to be more comfortable with where your at. Give things a bit more thought. Most of us have never drawn on anybody and all of us never want to. Be safe be smart and live long and happy just knowing your better than that other guy and do not have to prove it to yourself, him, us, or the world.
    BugDude, Chevyguy85 and MadMac like this.
    I carry to protect myself and my loved ones from the BG's. Not to solve societies problems. That said: if more carried the deterrent would only have a positive overall effect on those problems.

  5. #4
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Let me approach this from an anti-gun prosecuting attorney's perspective. On the surface, I don't see a threat to your life justifying use of lethal force. A wiley prosecuting attorney could claim that you instigated the encounter and escalated it. Once you started it, you chose not to retreat. Disparity of force may be very difficult to claim just because you are lanky and the other guy chubby. Depending on the laws of your state, some of these issues may be the deciding factor between freedom and prison for you. Understand your state's laws inside out with regard to use and justification of lethal force before you decide to carry. You will be surprised if you read actual case law. I'm just saying.
    Very informative and exactly why I posted this. Thank you!

    I've read all the laws in the book...here in MI we have Castle Law, which would take care of me not backing down. Lethal force is allowed when you are in fear of death, serious injury, or sexual assault here in MI. There's a difference between drawing and firing, and both are a deliberate action. Definitely not saying I would have shot the guy...it would take a lot more then fear of a fistfight for that to happen!
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    What is your employer's policy on shoplifting and theft? On handling situations where you suspect it's occuring? What's his position on carry or any personal weapons?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maverickx50 View Post
    Don't take this wrong. I'm sure your heart was/is in the right place. Problem is your youth and enthusiasm is trying to get you in trouble. You prepared to be ready to draw several ways and times. 1st rule, main rule, last rule if you ever think you may have to draw GO THE OTHER WAY. You will never convince anybody here that $50 worth of gas is worth what you will experience if you actually point that gun at someone let alone squeeze the trigger. Your weapon must always be your very last desperate choice. not your reason to be more comfortable with where your at. Give things a bit more thought. Most of us have never drawn on anybody and all of us never want to. Be safe be smart and live long and happy just knowing your better than that other guy and do not have to prove it to yourself, him, us, or the world.
    Not to worry, not taking this wrong at all.

    I'm definitely not trying to prove anything to anybody, but I was just thinking under the idea that I have no legal obligation to back down, I suppose. In a way I wanted to show him that trying to scare me won't work, and that he shouldn't be doing what he's doing there, we don't welcome it. He's stolen about $400 worth of gas from the company. Not in a hostile way though. I'm not about to brandish a firearm just to scare someone off, that's stupid.
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

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    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Prepay????????
    limatunes, msgt/ret, TVJ and 4 others like this.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

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    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    What is your employer's policy on shoplifting and theft? Call the police with vehicle description/plate #.
    On handling situations where you suspect it's occuring? Pump stop the subject and go outside to confront him, call the police.
    What's his position on carry or any personal weapons? All for it!
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  10. #9
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    having a gun is saying to self--if all else fails, i have the final answer. it is the last thing i ever want to use but i train as for it may someday be the 1st thing i have to use. what mavrick & bugdude said.....avoid, deescalate. in court , 2 plus years in court....25 plus THOUSAND dollars later in court....well that was the most expensive bullet you likely will ever fire. if it saves your or your loved ones life it is worth it. all else, probably not so much.
    BugDude and bds9009 like this.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem174 View Post
    Prepay????????
    Tried going to prepay only for a week...a bunch of regular ol' timers complained. Crazy boss switched it back to non-prepay only, 24/7. Unheard of in these days!
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  12. #11
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    having a gun is saying to self--if all else fails, i have the final answer. it is the last thing i ever want to use but i train as for it may someday be the 1st thing i have to use. what mavrick & bugdude said.....avoid, deescalate. in court , 2 plus years in court....25 plus THOUSAND dollars later in court....well that was the most expensive bullet you likely will ever fire. if it saves your or your loved ones life it is worth it. all else, probably not so much.
    A draw is much different than a shot fired, but it sounds like they're more similar than I thought. Always thought that warrant the circumstances of confronting a known thief and being threatened with violence would be enough for it if need be, but I'm glad it didn't get that far, trust me!
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

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    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Very informative and exactly why I posted this. Thank you!

    I've read all the laws in the book...here in MI we have Castle Law, which would take care of me not backing down. Lethal force is allowed when you are in fear of death, serious injury, or sexual assault here in MI. There's a difference between drawing and firing, and both are a deliberate action. Definitely not saying I would have shot the guy...it would take a lot more then fear of a fistfight for that to happen!
    Don't draw it unless you are justified and prepared to use it. If not, that's brandishing and punishable by law. Otherwise, it needs to stay holstered.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  14. #13
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    Tried going to prepay only for a week...a bunch of regular ol' timers complained. Crazy boss switched it back to non-prepay only, 24/7. Unheard of in these days!
    Invest in better video surveilance equipment and let the police handle it. That will be much cheaper in the long run.
    gottabkiddin likes this.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  15. #14
    Member Array KindOfBlue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    Don't draw it unless you are justified and prepared to use it. If not, that's brandishing and punishable by law. Otherwise, it needs to stay holstered.
    As it was. The guy couldn't even see it
    Kind of Blue - Miles Davis (1959). If you haven't heard it, go listen!

  16. #15
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KindOfBlue View Post
    A draw is much different than a shot fired, but it sounds like they're more similar than I thought. Always thought that warrant the circumstances of confronting a known thief and being threatened with violence would be enough for it if need be, but I'm glad it didn't get that far, trust me!
    You should read some of the threads here on drawing your weapon (with the hope that it will prevent further aggression...for 'intimidation'). It would probably be very educational.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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