Question about protecting others. - Page 3

Question about protecting others.

This is a discussion on Question about protecting others. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I guess the point I hate the most is that haughty lawmakers somewhere in the calm of a quiet room decided that they will bless ...

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  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    I guess the point I hate the most is that haughty lawmakers somewhere in the calm of a quiet room decided that they will bless you with some limited ability to defend yourself but here are the rules of engagement, here are the technicalities, here are the ways the criminal can use the law to get even with you, yada yada yada. The two guys who are beating up on your mom are in no way concerned with anything but getting what they want and will inflict whatever violence on another person without regards to the laws or the consequences thereof. You on the other hand, are, and may delay a decision because some ambitious could DA see an easy conviction of a gun crime (yours) and can put a notch on his belt because you didn't fulfill every aspect of the letter of the law. Ugh.
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    I would recommend seeking out additional training...Have you checked out the book recommended by MattInFla (from your McDonald's post)? There is no cut-and-dried answer, just general guidelines....know the law, seek training (to learn defensive techniques--in include when to NOT draw your gun), and practice what you've learned.

    Carrying a gun is no guarantee against bad things happening to you....that there are HUGE implications for carrying/displaying/drawing/shooting a firearm for self-defense. It's not like TV...a shooting happens and a couple of hours later you're at home having dinner. You have the firearm...now you need to get your defensive mindset ready.
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  3. #33
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Since when does law enforcement have better training than the average CCW'er?
    You're kidding right? A swat team or just regular cops in your area don't? What training to you think the average CCW has compared to LEO's. CCW needs no training except in basic operation of a handgun.

    In any case, if you're implying someone with a CCW should go around acting like a cop and intervening in numerous situations, you don't know the law - including CCW.

  4. #34
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExactlyMyPoint View Post
    I guess the point I hate the most is that haughty lawmakers somewhere in the calm of a quiet room decided that they will bless you with some limited ability to defend yourself but here are the rules of engagement, here are the technicalities, here are the ways the criminal can use the law to get even with you, yada yada yada. The two guys who are beating up on your mom are in no way concerned with anything but getting what they want and will inflict whatever violence on another person without regards to the laws or the consequences thereof. You on the other hand, are, and may delay a decision because some ambitious could DA see an easy conviction of a gun crime (yours) and can put a notch on his belt because you didn't fulfill every aspect of the letter of the law. Ugh.
    You want all to run around with guns doing whatever the impulse happens to be? I don't.

    CCW is simply authorization to carry a weapon whose possession otherwise would be a felony. It gives no permissions beyond that and it's province has nothing to do with shooting anyone.

    That is all a matter of Self-Defense Law - which says nothing about guns or shooting people either - or gives a CCW anything more than it gives everyone: Justification legally for an act that would otherwise be Murder if it's conditions are met. You have the same SD Law and the requirements a Self-Defense act of any sort has - and not one single centimeter more than anyone else by virtue of holding a CCW. None. You are not special, you have no special powers, duties, opportunities than anyone else - including someone who uses a gun illegally to save his life or a housewife who hits an attacker with a frying pan when he breaks into her home.

    Keep repeating that over and over again: "I'm not special"

    As far as your umbrage at their being technicalities involved in killing other people, mother of god help us........ this man walks among us legally with a gun........

  5. #35
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I would recommend seeking out additional training...Have you checked out the book recommended by MattInFla (from your McDonald's post)? There is no cut-and-dried answer, just general guidelines....know the law, seek training (to learn defensive techniques--in include when to NOT draw your gun), and practice what you've learned.

    Carrying a gun is no guarantee against bad things happening to you....that there are HUGE implications for carrying/displaying/drawing/shooting a firearm for self-defense. It's not like TV...a shooting happens and a couple of hours later you're at home having dinner. You have the firearm...now you need to get your defensive mindset ready.
    Excellent advice. As a policer office I know mentioned to me over coffee once on his break:

    "Man, if you shoot somebody you are going to be in a _ _ _ _LOAD of trouble"

    It really is an act of utterly last resort.

    Knowing other self-defense protections, including simple things like pepper-spray - is a great thing. It gives you options and gradations of response in situations where that is possible so "That Act" may not have to be used.

    Lot simpler to talk to police after spraying someone than shooting them.
    Last edited by hamlet; June 26th, 2011 at 05:50 PM.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    You're kidding right? A swat team or just regular cops in your area don't? What training to you think the average CCW has compared to LEO's. CCW needs no training except in basic operation of a handgun.

    In any case, if you're implying someone with a CCW should go around acting like a cop and intervening in numerous situations, you don't know the law - including CCW.
    My training exceeds the police, and I think there are a lot of CCW holders that have trained beyond that point. If you do not that is your choice. So leaving it to the professionals is not my choice. That being said swat and SRT have an advantage being trained in tactics, if this is what you are talking about, then I might give that to you, but overall I think your statement is incorrect..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  7. #37
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    My training exceeds the police, and I think there are a lot of CCW holders that have trained beyond that point. If you do not that is your choice. So leaving it to the professionals is not my choice. That being said swat and SRT have an advantage being trained in tactics, if this is what you are talking about, then I might give that to you, but overall I think your statement is incorrect..
    No it isn't - not where I come from, anywhere else I know or have lived, heard of or read of.

    In any case, it's a moot point: there's the question of law - which is there to protect also - by well limiting the lethal actions allowable to citizens.


    CCW is simply authorization to carry a weapon whose possession otherwise would be a felony. It gives no permissions beyond that and it's province has nothing to do with shooting anyone.

    That is all a matter of Self-Defense Law - which says nothing about guns or shooting people either - or gives a CCW anything more than it gives everyone: Justification legally for an act that would otherwise be Murder - if it's conditions are met. You have the same SD Law and the requirements a Self-Defense as any citizen - and not one single centimeter more than anyone else by virtue of holding a CCW. None. You are not special, you have no special powers, duties, opportunities than anyone else - including someone who uses a gun illegally to save his life or a housewife who hits an attacker with a frying pan when he breaks into her home.
    Last edited by hamlet; June 26th, 2011 at 07:53 PM.

  8. #38
    Member Array dojoman's Avatar
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    Protection of a family member in such a situation, I would protect them yes. As far as running out with my CC drawn....that is a little bit of a gray area.
    Verbal commands would be my first try, and I would not just run into the situation blind without seeing if there is more people around (GG or BGs) Try to take in as much information as fast as possible. Do you know if both of them are bad? What if one guy jumped your mom and the other is trying to pull him off and you shot both? Granted I'm getting deeper into this then you probably wanted, but just making a point. You might be able to yell at them to stop and leave the area...and they might not.
    Just try to get in the habit of looking at all the elements in a situation before you react, esp when drawing a weapon. Running across a public area with a gun in hand might get yourself shot too, so just be aware of that. If you practice enough, im confident you could get good enough to draw and take a shot in less then 3 seconds....so no need to run across 5+ yards with it in your hand...thats just my $0.02.

  9. #39
    Ex Member Array hamlet's Avatar
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    One thing the OP or any can do with, is a secondary means of defense, and why I started carrying pepper-spray again. Whether me or someone else, an attack could be stopped - or attempted to stop - with less than a shooting involved. Especially if it involves another person and it turns out you misjudged the severity of an action against them. Sure you'd be in trouble for pepper-spraying someone and going beyond the law, but a lot less trouble than shooting a person; and it just might stop such an attack as the OP describes.

    I'm not recommending you use pepper-spray in puzzling situations. I'm just saying the ability to respond in degrees is a good one to have.

  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    No it isn't - not where I come from, anywhere else I know or have lived, heard of or read of.

    In any case, it's a moot point: there's the question of law - which is there to protect also - by well limiting the lethal actions allowable to citizens.


    CCW is simply authorization to carry a weapon whose possession otherwise would be a felony. It gives no permissions beyond that and it's province has nothing to do with shooting anyone.

    That is all a matter of Self-Defense Law - which says nothing about guns or shooting people either - or gives a CCW anything more than it gives everyone: Justification legally for an act that would otherwise be Murder - if it's conditions are met. You have the same SD Law and the requirements a Self-Defense as any citizen - and not one single centimeter more than anyone else by virtue of holding a CCW. None. You are not special, you have no special powers, duties, opportunities than anyone else - including someone who uses a gun illegally to save his life or a housewife who hits an attacker with a frying pan when he breaks into her home.
    Your right about one thing. NOT WHERE YOU COME FROM....

    In other states people can defend the lives of others. So your bold statement really means nothing to anyone outside of New York. Most of our current law (state of Mi) has come to law because of the conceal carry law. Castles doctrine and stand your ground to be specific. If Im not mistaken, most of it was modeled after florida. Do use a favor and step back and read what a free state has to say on the subject. As for the training aspect, you crack me up....
    SIGguy229 likes this.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  11. #41
    Senior Moderator
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    Your right about one thing. NOT WHERE YOU COME FROM....

    In other states people can defend the lives of others. So your bold statement really means nothing to anyone outside of New York. Most of our current law (state of Mi) has come to law because of the conceal carry law. Castles doctrine and stand your ground to be specific. If Im not mistaken, most of it was modeled after florida. Do use a favor and step back and read what a free state has to say on the subject. As for the training aspect, you crack me up....
    See post #24, above, for a fairly detailed examination of what Florida has to say about it.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
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  12. #42
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    See post #24, above, for a fairly detailed examination of what Florida has to say about it.
    I did that already, thanks Matt.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  13. #43
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Since when does law enforcement have better training than the average CCW'er?
    Most states like Florida have a professional standards and training commission that requires manditory supplemental training on a regular basis to maintain your Criminal Justice Standards and Training Certificate.

    This training is in First Aid, Criminal Law, Firearms and Defensive Tactics, Human Relations ect.

    There are civilians who have Concealed Carry Weapons/ Firearms Permits that get additional training on their own from established trainers.

    I do not believe that the average tens of thousands of CCW Permit holders in the state of Florida seek this additional training.

    It would be good if they did.

    So yes I absolutely believe that the "average" law enforcement officer has better training in criminal law and defensive tactics training and dealing with high stress situations then the "average" CCW Permit holder.

    OS
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    *Go back and read the OP's Post: he asked about the right to shoot as part of his post and I gave him the basic law that relates to that, as well as examples of how errors in judgment are easily made in such events as he brought up.

    *I don't and haven't critiqued other posters formal writing capability like a nosy school-marm. I took issue with a point that they made, which is the nature of discussion.

    * if you want to find irrelevancy anywhere, notice the off-topic nature of your own post.

    *Mind your own business in the future.
    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Nothing unusual about trying to keep people from introducing all sorts of non-related things to scenarios and situations. I've seen you complain about it with your scenarios.

    Stick with the program.
    Altho I musta missed where I "critiqued other writer's formal writing capability." Was it in this thread, and therefore relevant? Or just you propping up a bruised (Lord knows why?) ego?
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  15. #45
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    OK, folks, let's secure the interpersonal commentary and discuss the thread topic, please.
    limatunes likes this.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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