Question about protecting others.

Question about protecting others.

This is a discussion on Question about protecting others. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Lets say my mother and I are out and about somewhere, completely minding our business. I'm inside paying for the gas while she's out ready ...

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  1. #1
    Member Array Florida's Avatar
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    Question about protecting others.

    Lets say my mother and I are out and about somewhere, completely minding our business. I'm inside paying for the gas while she's out ready to pump, I look out and see two men jump on her and start beating her (would your answer be the same if it was only 1 guy?), I already know I'm going to go out with my weapon drawn and tell them to stop immediately or be shoot. Would I be in my legal right to do so? And shot if they didn't stop? See, I'm looking for a cut and dry answer, I've asked cops and I ALWAYS get a different answer. Obviously two guys duking it out is something I'd walk right past, I'm talking about a person that is obviously helpless in the situation, i.e. older lady, handicapped etc etc. P.s. I live in Florida.
    Last edited by Florida; June 25th, 2011 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Spelling error


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    In Tx you can come to the aid of a third party,if somebody is defenseless on the ground and being beaten I'm considering it life threatening,one hit,one slamming their head on the ground,one kick could seriously injure or kill,I will draw and order them to stop,failure to comply will result in "affirmative action"I hope that is PC enough
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  3. #3
    sgb
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    A Lesson in Disparity of Force...


    Disparity of Force is defined as a situation that any reasonable person would conclude places you at an overwhelming disadvantage in your effort to protect yourself against immediate and serious bodily injury.

    Here are some examples of Disparity of Force:

    * Large man against small man.
    * Able bodied man against disabled man.
    * Man against woman.
    * Two or more men against one man.
    * Two or more juveniles against one man or one woman.
    * Man or woman known to have training in the martial arts against untrained man or woman.
    Against The Unarmed: A Disparity Of Force Shooting
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  4. #4
    JD
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    What you are describing is a clear issue of "disparity of force" most states have provisions for you to aide another if they are at risk of great bodily harm (GBH) or death. This works for even a single attacker that has attributes that put the victim at a disadvantage, size physical handicap, age, gender all come into play, it can even go so far as to include known skills at the time, say you know an attacker is a 158th degree blackbelt in Swiss Ju-Karate, you can use that as a defense for using lethal force, provided you knew at the time force was used that your attacker possessed those skills.

    So, all that being said, yes if my mother being attacked by two, or even one able bodied attacker I would respond with gun drawn, fists/feet can be deadly with not much skill and generally speaking, men are stronger and can throw down more of a beating than an average woman can take, therefore they do pass go as far as Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy are concerned. They have the ability & opportunity to cause GBH or death, and my mother is in jeopardy. If they did not immediately cease their attack, I would shoot whichever one I deemed to be the most immediate threat, if the second did not comply soon after, he would be shot as well.

  5. #5
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    Third party defense is often considered legally justifiable by law though most will caution to be extraordinarily cautious before getting into those situations as you may not have all of the facts.

    If it's your mother, however, and see two men accosting her then it's a safer assumption.

    Two men makes disparity of force even greater on your side as two men beating on your mother is pretty cut and dry unless there is something HUGE you don't know.

    In my lay opinion, in that situation, lethal force would be entirely justifiable. Would bringing a gun into the scenario be the smartest action? (Do you really want to pull a gun and point it at a group of moving bodies in the midst of which is your mother?) I don't know. But I think it would be justifiable.

  6. #6
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    You try jumping my family members while they are pumping gas, prepare for war. I am prepared, are you?

    I will worry about the legal complications at a later time...

    Just finished my latest range time yesterday...with all five of my Glocks and my SP101...they all work very well.
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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    In WA St you can use your firearm to stop the commission of a felony (and a beating can easily lead to gross bodily harm, but there may be lesser charges that dont make it a felony....so I'm no expert on this). Others have mentioned disparity of force. If it's a family member, it's a no-brainer. If it is a stranger, man or woman, old, young, whatever, it is your call if you want to get involved. In this situation, 2 on 1, it would be a legitimate reason for drawing if a verbal 'I'm calling 911' doesnt stop things. If it is 1 on 1, then you have to take the disparity of force into consideration.


    I suggest taking a CC or other handgun or self-defense class, if you havent already. The ones I've taken have been a blast (pun intended). Knowing the laws will save you in more ways than you can imagine.
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    Senior Member Array DaRedneck's Avatar
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    I agree with ret. If I look out and see my mother being attacked by 1 or 100 I am discharging my sidearm if I have a clean shot. Some my try to subdue the attacker but if they have a weapon that you don't know about then the rest of your family may be burying 2 members of their family in about 3 days. I'm not taking that chance. Especially if it is a grown man or men assaulting my elderly mother. They picked the wrong fight. Shame on them.
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    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    In Wisconsin you can shoot them both in this scenario. If you feel someone is in grave danger, then you can act in their SD.

    Just remember, there has to a justifiable reason for you to step in.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florida View Post
    Lets say my mother and I are out and about somewhere, completely minding our business. I'm inside paying for the gas while she's out ready to pump, I look out and see two men jump on her and start beating her (would your answer be the same if it was only 1 guy?), I already know I'm going to go out with my weapon drawn and tell them to stop immediately or be shoot. Would I be in my legal right to do so? And shot if they didn't stop? See, I'm looking for a cut and dry answer, I've asked cops and I ALWAYS get a different answer. Obviously two guys duking it out is something I'd walk right past, I'm talking about a person that is obviously helpless in the situation, i.e. older lady, handicapped etc etc. P.s. I live in Florida.
    you biggest mistake is asking cops for a legal opinion, cops are not lawyers and aren't always very knowledgeable of the laws and applications of the laws. they see what they think is a crime, they arrest and let others sort out the legalities so do yourself a favor and find a better source of legal info.
    as for aiding a victim of crime, yes you can intervene but be aware you are getting into very dangerous legal territory. there are way too many variables for me to get each and every one, what you think is a crime may not be, or you may chose to aid the BG rather than the victim, you are not a cop or a crime fighter so other than aiding a loved one I would suggest never getting involved in a crime, call the police and be a good witness. and lastly if you do draw on someone and they turn and run, do not chase after them, they are no longer a threat
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  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    so many questions....may i ask how much time you spent with your instructor?
    was the laws in your area discussed. the type and ammo your local/state police carry?
    a strategy of awarenesses--situational awarenesses.

    sure be hard to think call 911 b4 going into action but is your cell voice activated for if
    you command "PHONE POLICE" and it does 911 in your shirt pocket. thats a start.

    tell me about your phone and meanwhile--

    i pulled up to the pump that had a note on it saying 'broken--pay inside' and its dark and the station looks shady....
    ...my SA says find gas elsewhere; and we drive away.

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  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    Forget legalities - let's focus on something a little more straightforward: are you helping the right person?

    OK, the "OMG they're beating on my mother!!!!" scenario is an easy one to figure out.

    But what happens if it's not as clear-cut. Who do you help?

    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    Captain Kirk ain't the only one can play the Kobayashi Maru
    ^ Ain't that the truth, bruddah!!!!! ----->

    How many of us have seen this target on our trips through the shoot-house:

    3d-dv307002.jpg

    So without any external references of whether if this was a disparity-of-force scenario or a "your neighbor woman who has been repeatedly beat-up by her no-good-drunk-husband and has made 4 domestic violence calls in the last 6 months" kind of background, versus, say, a husband fighting back (with bare hands, 'cause he's a bear of a guy!) against a Lifetime Channel presents "Snapped" scenario: what's your call?

    I'll tell you what I did. I rounded that corner and I froze. I yelled something or another (which violates the language rules here ), but I did not shoot either of the two individuals on the target. I yelled "I don't know what to do" to my instructor, who then just tapped me on the back and said "skip it." At the debrief, I told him why, and he just chuckled - he wanted to see what I'd do. Another person in our group that day was given a clear background, and he shot the husband. Another person that day was also not given any instructions as to what to expect: he chose to put a shot in both of the targets .

    It's not that easy, huh?

    I agree completely with limatune's assessment, in playing to the OP's "my mother's getting jumped" scenario - but I'm taking things one step further here, and more playing off of the first portion of her reply, where she states:

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Third party defense is often considered legally justifiable by law though most will caution to be extraordinarily cautious before getting into those situations as you may not have all of the facts.
    In the larger scheme of things, coming to someone else's aid can be a bit more complicated.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by apvbguy View Post
    you biggest mistake is asking cops for a legal opinion, cops are not lawyers
    Ditto. And whatever you hear here as well, you should always confirm with the official laws of your state.
    AZJD1968 likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
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    I would like to shed a different point of view on the gas station situation. I hate gas stations. Every known type of person has to stop for gas at some point, and you just don't who you are going to get while you are there exposing yourself, and all of your financial info. When I go to the pumps, everyone in the car stays inside the car with the doors locked. I don't let them get out. I do my business with the utmost situational awareness and get the heck out.
    If it came to defending my family from attackers I would absolutely do anything necessary, after all, that is why I carry, to protect me and mine. As for others, that is a fine line and it depends on many things. I live in Texas and I know the laws there, but the laws differ from state to state. I would have to make that decision on a case by case basis.
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  15. #15
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    Someone jumps my mother and their dead. Either by my hand or hers. End of story. Someone on the street? depends on the situation.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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