To shoot, or not to shoot?

This is a discussion on To shoot, or not to shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You know - also I've always wished there was some kind of system that you could install in a business that by pressing a button ...

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    You know - also I've always wished there was some kind of system that you could install in a business that by pressing a button it would incapacitate everyone inside. Obviously I've thought of things like hidden shotguns placed around pointing everywhere with an electronic trigger.. but imagine if it malfunctioned or somebody hit the switch by accident, or when innocent bystanders were around. So that isn't a good idea. But then I've wondered if it might be possible to rig something that would launch tasers instead. At least that is non-lethal, but stands a chance of not hitting your target. Then again, if you are a convenience store and you know that the crooks always come up to a certain spot to rob you, it might just work. Another thing I've thought of is some system where the doors automatically lock and the room fills with some kind of gas that would put everyone to sleep. Everyone except you, since you'd have a handy gas mask. But the question is, would the crook realize what is happening and shoot you before the gas takes effect. Another possibility would be some kind of system that automatically sprays pepper spray at certain likely spots for crooks to be. I'm kind of surprised nobody's ever installed something like that. In fact, it might work as a good deterrent. For example, if crooks were aware that such systems existed and you had a sign at your shop warning about it, they might choose to find some place else to rob.

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    In most states, spring traps are illegal... And that's because an Iowa farmer set up a shotgun trap at an abandoned farmhouse that was being vandalized... He's in prison, and the law is the result.

    Liability for such a system would be prohibitive... What if a patron has an allergic reaction to pepper spray, a pacemaker (tasers), etc. You have to target the BG alone, and it requires human intervention.
    It could be worse.
    "A law that burdens the exercise of an enumerated constitutional right by simply making that right more difficult to exercise cannot be considered “reasonably adapted” to a government interest, no matter how substantial that interest may be."
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  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    depending on how gung ho you want to be about this, you could always install several 12 gauges mounted waist high behind a counter in different positions and install panels to hide them that can be blown away as the lead travels towards the BG's waist and midsection.
    There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Yeah, but you have to trigger each one yourself or it's a "spring trap" and illegal... Lance did have a gun under the counter in a drawing position, every 3 feet, IIRC.
    It could be worse.
    "A law that burdens the exercise of an enumerated constitutional right by simply making that right more difficult to exercise cannot be considered “reasonably adapted” to a government interest, no matter how substantial that interest may be."
    Wollard V Sheridan

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    ...
    Do everything you can to prepare your mind so it does not falter at the moment of need. This is in addition to the physical preparations, training and practice.

    This is not conjecture, I speak from experience...
    I agree completely. Additionally, having the correct "mindset" allows for faster decisions in a shoot/no shoot incident. Faltering, waffling, wavering for more than microseconds may cost your life.
    It could be worse.
    "A law that burdens the exercise of an enumerated constitutional right by simply making that right more difficult to exercise cannot be considered “reasonably adapted” to a government interest, no matter how substantial that interest may be."
    Wollard V Sheridan

  7. #36
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    Stubborn, I think you may have taken my post a little too personally in that I was going after you as I was not. I quoted the portion of your post as an example and was replying not to you specifically but in general. Perhaps I could have been clearer.

    I don't believe we are on opposite sides of the fence at all as I agreed with everything you said.

    You are right, everyone has to choose for him (or her) self the line they will not cross and as guantes said, mentally prepare for it on top of physically preparing and training. You said you would engage. I did not disagree with that statement at all. And you are very right, I have no idea about your level of training.

    What I mean when I said, "this kind of mentality NEEDS (DESPERATELY NEEDS) good, solid training and practice behind it" was ".. the mentality of engaging against someone who already has the drop on you desperately needs good, solid training and practice behind it." This being a general statement, not only directed solely at you, Stubborn.

    I know that Florida is a new carrier. He's young and from his other posts has only been carrying for a matter of months if my memory serves me correctly. I wanted to make it very clear to him that if HE should decide that he is going to adopt this mentality (the mentality of engaging against an individual who already has the drop on him) he would be remiss if he didn't get training to back that up.

    I never said one should not engage against someone with a gun to them. I can't make that decision for someone. Personally, engaging against someone who had the drop on me would would not be my first and immediate action but I would not rule it out. There were some circumstances that I briefly laid out wherein I would draw against the drop and that list could change given any number of situations. I've trained to do it. I know my chances if I try. And only I, while in that circumstance, can determine whether or not it's worth the risk either way. But that is my personal decision. One (as in, anyone and everyone) runs a lot of risks by engaging someone who has the drop on him and whether he choose to do it immediately or to wait to see what happens (if he choose to do it at all), it should be backed by a level of training that allows him to do it as quickly and effectively as possible (and, again, I'm speaking in general here). Whether one chooses to do it immediately or in 30 seconds the level of training needs to be there.

    You, Stubborn, may very well have that training and may have decided to respond immediately to someone who has the drop on you. If so, that's fine. I respect that decision and don't think it's a bad decision (provided you know what you're up against and have trained for it).

    In your post you had not mentioned training for someone who has the drop on you and I was not assuming one way or the other. I simply wanted to make it clear to the OP that such training should be sought if drawing against the drop is a decision he wants to make for himself. Heck, that training should be sought anyway, but as he has a higher likelihood of it happening to him he might want to seek it out post hast.


  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    You bring up several good points and I agree...we're fine, no problems, no feelings hurt or egos bruised here. I actually was kidding with the line about mentality and DESPERATELY NEEDED, in fact I went back and re-read it and added an "LOL" because I didn't want you to think I was jumping at you. Sometimes with text humor dosen't convey well.

    Now back to business, the decision I made regarding this situation is absolutely not for everyone. I honestly don't know if I could pull it off or not. I just feel like I would have to try. I think for the most part just about all of us that carry have at some point, come to the realization that defending ourselves could very well end up in our death. Self defense is inherently dangerous. If one has not considered that possibility before they strapped on a handgun they need to do some soul searching. I am old and my family is raised, not that I am ready or willing to die but, (I'm not really sure how to say this)...other than that I don't have as much to live for as someone in their 20's or 30's. I do not fear death, I would just rather wait a while longer if I had my choice.
    I think "gloves" put it the best when he said, "I will not rest my well being on the benevolence of an armed criminal". Perhaps a young person with their whole life in front of them might be willing to take that chance. I am not.
    Thanks for your opinion, I value it. I've said it before, but there is just such a wealth of knowledge available here at DC. It always keeps you thinking and re-assessing things and situations.
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  9. #38
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Yeah, but you have to trigger each one yourself or it's a "spring trap" and illegal... Lance did have a gun under the counter in a drawing position, every 3 feet, IIRC.
    That's too bad. I've always wanted to design a car stereo system that would electrocute a person trying to steal it. Or maybe one that would explode like a grenade 60 minutes after it was removed from the car. Guess that means that would be illegal too.

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    That's too bad. I've always wanted to design a car stereo system that would electrocute a person trying to steal it.
    Booby trap? What booby trap? I guess I'm just not a very good electrician...
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  11. #40
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    oakchas I totally understand and agree with your assessment as to the price paid by Lance Thomas in the aftermath of his encounters. Both in regards to how it affected his business and the scars left on him.

    But I also believe Mr. Thomas would be the first to say, it is better to be alive and dealing with PTSD, the physical and emotional scars than it is to be, well... Dead. I believe his last gunfight was better than 20 years ago. I don't think he's regretted having the additional 20 years to enjoy seeing the sun rise and enjoy what has remained of his life, regardless of how difficult it may be.

    On another note (directed to everyone), I just want to reiterate the seriousness of the decision to respond to an armed robbery. I thought I made it pretty clear in my first post, but it can not be overstated so it bears reinforcement.

    Gunfights are a horrible thing to engage in. They are fast and furious and in a matter of seconds, someone is usually either dead, or dying. It is foolhardy to assume you are going to come out the victor just because you are an innocent person with a gun.

    To engage an armed robber when he has already announced his intentions by displaying a weapon and making his demands is something that must be seriously contemplated in advance. You really have to wrap your head around that. You have to know in advance and come to grips with the fact that you are making a conscious decision to engage in a feat which may very well be the end of your very existence. It is called "the moment of truth" for a reason. You may only have a moment to decide if you are going to go for it, or not. It takes commitment. Any halfassed measure and you'll likely be the one who is dead. If you foul your draw, you're dead. If you start it, and then chicken out, you're really going to be dead.

    It is not something I recommend to people and never will. It is your decision and yours alone to decide how you will respond in a robbery.

    It is mandatory that you strategize in advance, how you will respond to any given situation. It is incumbent on you to apply strategies and think tactically to known and unknown situations. Your level of training really needs to be up to the task. You need to know the rules of law, the rules of lethal force so fluently that you are able to assess situations on the fly, as they develop. You need to be able to know where innocent bystanders are and take that into consideration. You need to make these assessments in a matter of moments and it should be in the forefront of your thoughts.

    As a law abiding good guy, you are responsible for where your bullets go. The robber doesn't give a crap. They will spray their bullets indiscriminately and not care who gets shot as long as it isn't them.

    What works for me, should not be applied to anyone else. Nor should Lance Thomas', Jelly Bryce or anyone else who may or may not be a member of this forum. Survival is a very personal thing on a carnal level. It's something each person has to grapple with on their own level, and based on their own level of capabilities as well as their own mental capacity.

    No one should lose sight of what we discuss on this forum. No matter how social, respectful, politically correct we try to be here, the topic at hand is about death, the possibility of killing someone, and how to do it efficiently and effectively. We don't intend to kill anyone with our actions. We want to be able to stop an a lethal attack being committed against us. But in the end, when you respond with lethal force, the likelihood of someone dying is very real. Gun fights are fast, furious, frightful and gruesome. And in the end, someone is either dead, or dying. Taking someones life is about as serious as serious can get, and it's not something we should lose track of.
    Guantes, oakchas and Old School like this.
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #41
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    ^^^^^
    One of the best treatise of the subject that I have seen.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array searcher 45's Avatar
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    If BGs really grow more violent as they commit additional crimes, then when someone stops them in the act it also may save lives in the future.

    You may be the hand that saves many lives by ending or stopping BG or BGs today.
    NOT LIVING IN FEAR, JUST READY!!!
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    I love only that which they defend.
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  14. #43
    Member Array Florida's Avatar
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    Bark'n, that is the best post I've ever read.

  15. #44
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    oakchas
    It is mandatory that you strategize in advance, how you will respond to any given situation. It is incumbent on you to apply strategies and think tactically to known and unknown situations. Your level of training really needs to be up to the task. You need to know the rules of law, the rules of lethal force so fluently that you are able to assess situations on the fly, as they develop. You need to be able to know where innocent bystanders are and take that into consideration. You need to make these assessments in a matter of moments and it should be in the forefront of your thoughts.
    .
    Nice!

    This is something I alluded to in my first post....drawing down and complying are NOT your only options. Have alternative plans. That's why I said, have your backstop(s) planned out...know where you'd need to stand to have a clear shot. Know where your true cover is, so that you can move and gain an advantage. Know what you can use for a shield as you and attacker move into proximity to each other. YOU know your surroundings best...use that to your advantage. Is it possible for an attacker to herd you to a back room? What can you stash along the way to use or block? What distractions can you use? What are your plans if there are other innocent bystanders involved?

    Again, drawing down is not your only other choice...your advantage may lay in waiting for the right moment to fire. Only you can read that situation...but the more plans and tools at your disposal, the better prepared you are...the better chance you have of survival.

    I have similar plans for home, vehicle, camper, trail riding, hiking (with and without dogs), and work. Heck...everytime I read something here I add to them!
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    ...your advantage may lay in waiting for the right moment to fire. Only you can read that situation...but the more plans and tools at your disposal, the better prepared you are...the better chance you have of survival.

    I have similar plans for home, vehicle, camper, trail riding, hiking (with and without dogs), and work. Heck...everytime I read something here I add to them!
    Good points. Having watched a lot of surveillance video tapes during street survival classes as well as on the local news of these convenience store robberies where the clerk gets executed, you can often see plenty of opportunities to respond where the odds are more favorable. I would say the worst time to try and draw is when they first stick the gun in your face. Also, they rarely come in and shoot the clerk or patrons outright (although that did recently happen in Ft.Worth). Lets face it, they are there to get money, so even if they do have a plan to kill the clerk as part of a thrill, it's almost always at the end of the robbery after the clerk has offered no resistance and handed over the money.

    The other time clerks get shot, is during a half-assed, ill conceived, poorly executed attempt to disarm the robber and they end up in a struggle over the gun. Then the clerk gets shot either during the struggle, or the robber retains his weapon and just becomes infuriated at the clerk for trying to get him.

    So, if you keep your wits about you and can fight the urge to panic, and have strategized properly and know the layout of your store with your eyes closed, you'll find that that there are usually a few golden opportunities to respond.

    One thing I've also noticed in a ton of videos is that once the clerk surprises the robber with his own gun, the clerk rarely is ever killed. I've seen shots exchanged, without people being hit, but usually the robber doesn't want any part of being on the other end of the muzzle and flees post haste. But that most certainly can't be relied on.

    Again, I don't advocate anyone trying to draw down a robber with a gun in your face. That's your call. But as I pointed out in my first post, these thugs seem to be getting more and more ruthless and vicious and I have seen an increase of clerks getting killed after complete and docile compliance. Again, they get executed just for the thrill of it. The last guy I saw killed in Kansas City just a couple months ago was a young man who was working his very last night at the store before starting a new job at a hospital to better himself and provide for his family. How tragic and how ironic it was his last shift. It was obvious he totally complied as you clearly see him opening the register and stepping back away so the the robber could reach in and grab the cash, which he did. Then he shot him and left.

    It's a dangerous world out there. And tomorrow is promised to no one.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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