To shoot, or not to shoot?
This is a discussion on To shoot, or not to shoot? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I work for my fathers business which is open til about 12am. These types of businesses are frequently robbed because there's a lot of cash ...
June 29th, 2011 11:05 PM
To shoot, or not to shoot?
I work for my fathers business which is open til about 12am. These types of businesses are frequently robbed because there's a lot of cash on hand. 4 places have been robbed at gun point within the past month, and it's a real possiblity it could happen here. They all have happened in the same way, 2 guys, armed and hold the gun to the employee until cash is givin. Nobody has been shot in these roberies, around here anyway. I often ask myself what should I do? Should I let them just hold me up and give them the cash, since nobody has actually been hurt, and avoid a shoot out where we constantly have 10+ customers? Or should I just fire as soon as I see them, assuming I have a clear shot? I don't want to have the guilty conscious of killing someone, if there was a possibility it could have just been a simple stick up. But I certainly do not want to be the guy who gives the money up, and gets shot.
June 29th, 2011 11:09 PM
No set answer. Circumstances will be a large factor in the decision.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
June 29th, 2011 11:20 PM
Pretty much your answer here. I highly recommend you seek additional training, as you have specific training needs for your situation. Also, as much as it pains me to say, you also might want to look at your business's insurance coverage, and know what your liability is for each robbery, and in the event of a defensive shooting. Just a thought....
Originally Posted by Guantes
- know the difference
is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
June 29th, 2011 11:32 PM
You pull the trigger... what if you are wrong? Are you ready to go down that road?
Speaking from Law Enforcement, cops go through this dilemma all the time. When you start sizing someone up as a possible threat, if you act too soon before they show their intentions, you could be seen as the bad guy. How many times do bad guys walk in and "case" the place only to change their mind and walk out? You will never know.
Not an easy decision to make but then, that's part of the burden of CCW.
June 29th, 2011 11:37 PM
Another thing to consider is a video security system. These have become affordable for all but the smallest of businesses. Although the deterrent value is questionable, documenting what happened and when can be extremely valuable after the fact (especially if there is an armed confrontation). Multiple cameras that are located and aimed to get a customer's face (not just the top of the brim of the BG's baseball cap!) entering and leaving the business are key to the utility of the system.
NRA Endowment Member
NROI Chief Range Officer
June 29th, 2011 11:55 PM
If stores like the one you work at are being robbed by armed BGs, then it is only a matter of time before they escalate to shooting people. It's an unfortunate natural progression of BGs. Eventually they will be forced to shoot out of necessity. Whether it be a cop, armed citizen, or just the need for more thrill out of the crime itself, it will happen.
Do what you can to prevent the crime. The more dangerous* you make your place of business look, the less likely you are to be robbed.
* - (Not necessarily physically dangerous, but cameras and other items that show you gather evidence to help capture the BGs and convict them, or security measures to make theft harder to commit)
June 30th, 2011 12:00 AM
That's a tuff one no doubt but I can say, IMHO, you don't wanna just start shooting people as they come in that you "think" may rob your business. CC is a life changing decision and with it comes great responsibility.
"He who does not punish evil commands it to be done." - Leonardo da Vinci
June 30th, 2011 01:39 AM
I'm saying, they come in the door, masked with weapons in their hands. Obvious intentions to rob. - @ DaRedneck
June 30th, 2011 01:51 AM
it could have just been a simple stick up
the very concept of a simple stick up is a PC COS
change B&E to Home Invasion when we as our Army's' are Invading foreign countries make it sound PC.
you must make decisions based upon what is happening before you...of course your perception is colored by past events that you have experienced or heard about. and you actions must be within the realm of you capabilities. at he very least you must train to be the man you feel you may be called upon to be.
You plug 'em, I plant 'em
...kid can't read at 17 (Garcia/Hunter 1985)
Lack of preparation on your part does not necessarily constitute an emergency on mine
June 30th, 2011 03:43 AM
Unfortunately, the burdens are all on you, none on them. You...are the one that must make lightning decisions like...do I have a backstop (something that you can at least think out before any situation), are bystanders in the line of fire, etc and put you at a disadvantage. They have no such qualms...they can just shoot.
Originally Posted by Florida
However if the scene is as you describe and you can shoot (without harm to innocents) then IMO, shooting is a completely legit action. But...how sure is your aim, and your drawing speed, against already drawn guns?
Have multiple plans for such situations, not just shooting. There are always variables (as G said). Nothing ever goes as planned.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
June 30th, 2011 03:53 AM
Me too - can't know in advance. Have to read the circumstances at the moment. Just know the law. (E.G., you can't shoot someone because they're have been a lot of robberies lately. Has to THIS one, and what's happening now.)
Originally Posted by Guantes
June 30th, 2011 05:48 AM
I would say that the answer is obvious. If you have the skill set, shoot them to the ground. If you don't either get some training or hire security that can handle the situation.
June 30th, 2011 06:22 AM
Knowing current events in that area is bad because it makes you contemplate a scenario like this and possibly overanalyze what may happen. It's also a good thing because it makes you contemplate a scenario and allows you to put in place a strategy and plan of action if it happens to you. An outdoor camera with a screen visible to the employees would be beneficial. You would be a step ahead of charging BGs in hoods coming to the door.
Don't in any way assume they won't shoot you because of history. A gun in your face is hard to defend against and if more than one is armed and brandishing you have a whole nother issue to deal with.
There's nothing like a funeral to make you feel alive
June 30th, 2011 08:53 AM
By statute, they are in the process of committing a violent felony, and you have statutory right (not to mention moral right) to defend yourself and others.
Here is THE question IMO: how much do you trust the moral judgments of people who are likely multiple offense felons to treat you and others with kindness...while pointing a presumably loaded gun at you?
He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
June 30th, 2011 10:01 AM
Here's the deal... A person holding you at gunpoint puts your life at the whim of the gunman. You are negotiating for your life. You only have one life! That's it, only one life. Then gone forever. Like you were never even here. Leaving your wife, and children (if you have any) with a deep hole which will never be filled. Their grief will be inconsolable.
Take a few moments to let that sink in.
Now, while there are literally thousands of armed robberies where never a shot is fired and nothing is lost but cash and property. However, it's the gunman who makes the rules.
Now the scary part. There has been, and I believe will continue to be, a rising trend in the viciousness of criminal. The likelihood of a robbers executing their victims in the face of total compliance is on the rise. I say execution because that's exactly what it is. The video tells the truth. Time and time again you see video surveillance tape showing a complete and total cooperation on the part of the store clerk in offering no resistance and handing over the cash only to get shot in the face and murdered before the gunman leaves.
It has happened probably a dozen times in my state over the last year. At least three times in Kansas City alone. The criminals are merciless, don't care, jacked-up on meth or any number of other intoxicants and literally bloodthirsty. Some of them even outwardly show a sense of joy or thrill when they do it. Looking at their partner and laughing after the execution. It is literally chilling when you watch the video's on the local news. Years ago, they were called "Thrill Killers," I don't know what you call them today. Sick?
You have no idea if your robber is one of those nut jobs who are going to execute you until you see the flash of the gun muzzle a microsecond before your life is gone.
It's an ugly, horrible thing to contemplate. I already know what I would do if I worked retail or in a convenience store, but that is me and my mindset. If you choose to fight back, you better get your mind right and your skills honed to handle the task. It's nothing to pussyfoot around with. You're either all-in, or you're not.
The following video may give you some perspective. Lance Thomas is a man who decided he was not going to negotiate for his life with bloodthirsty killers. He is a watchmaker and owned a retail watch shop in central L.A. He is a modern day gunfighter. Take note of his mild-mannered, reserved demeanor, yet steely resolve and determination.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
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