Planned Bug In Place...Whats To Have?

Some observations about some of the posts, with comments on how I see it but definatley something to think about and ponder.

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In the event of a breakdown in the ordinary infrastructure of society, what makes you think there will be a need to hide or protect against marauding gangs of villains? Do you think that poorly of your fellow citizens?

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This isnt Japan. This is the United States. A large percentage of the population lives off of the government milk jug. When it runs dry, those people will be unprepared and things will get crazy. The small towns will fare better than the big city welfare types. When they get hungry,thirsty and scared, big citys will NOT be the place to be.

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An exit plan.

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Very important. Even the fortified castles of Europe has secret getaways. Our firebases in Vietnam had them. You must have an exit plan, your survival may depend on it.

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Rather than hiding in holes and hording goods, it's incumbent on the able survivors to lead reconstruction and relief efforts.

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True statement...but you have to SURVIVE the initial onslaught first. Reconstruction comes after the panic, not before.

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I'm wanting a precision rifle, silenced and effective past 600 yards.

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You can have one or the other but not both. The quietest suppressed rifles use subsonic ammo which,although it's fairly quiet has the trajectory of a rainbow. 300 yards is about the maximum effective range. If you use a suppressor on a rifle that shoots supersonic, you'll have the ability to hit far off, but the rifle will no means be quiet and the sonic blast is very evident.

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There are no indications now or in our history that would make these thoughts or preparations a response to reality - there's just life as usual - including bad economies for awhile and all that. If you want to take every negative as promising catastrophe, you'll find more negatives and more catastrophe.

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Never at any point in time or history, have we had a popluation so dependent on someone else for their survival. History is full of examples. TEOTWAWKI may not be the same for you a few hundred miles away...but if my world is crashing down and people are starving to death and in a blind panic it will be TEOTWAKI for me.

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The proximate threat the OP faces isn't social Armageddon but mental Armageddon. His mind will kill his life.

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On the contrary...his mind can accept that things may change for the worst. His mindset will go a long way to ensuring his survival. People that ignore the fact that it could happen because it scares them, will be rotting carcasses littering the countryside with the mistaken beleif that it couldnt happen here.

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We do not presently have external enemies capable of doing global harm to our nation. We have a military with far greater response ability than back then. Bad stuff can happen of course as it did on 9/11, but no other nation is going to take us out in some massive violent attack.

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Another assumption, yet one that the Federal Government does not share. There are several nations that could put the hurt on us. A coordinated terrorist strike with suitcase nukes could take us out in the blink of an eye, and the Government beleives it enough to spend billions on it and drill on that scenario. A couple of well place EMP blasts and our response cababilty would be severly diminished. Yeah, it could happen and if it does, no amount of preparation will be enough.

I am of the thought process that it is better to prepare and not need it than it is to need it and not have it. If you dont need it, thats great and everyone lives happily ever after. If you do not it and you were foolish enough to say it couldnt happen here, you'll be on a list somewhere of people that perished.

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In the event of a breakdown in the ordinary infrastructure of society, what makes you think there will be a need to hide or protect against marauding gangs of villains?

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If people will burn down portions of their own cities just because their favorite sports teams lose, they damn sure will not remain civilized if they have no heat, food, water, or their beer and television.

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Do you think that poorly of your fellow citizens?

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Sadly, I do.

HotGuns....thank you for tying things together and bring the thread back in the manor i had worked toward.
the supersonic/ 600 meters was a foolish mis-statement by me, especially as i do F-1 with my Rem 700/ 308.

but the idea of what we will face, perhaps varies by region, indeed even separated by a small mountain may make a difference.
50 years ago(around the time of JFK) 50 % of the population was rural and today i believe it is 18%. and even the suburban house wife in 1960 could take a chicken from the meat market- who took off the head; to home where she finished the 'cooking'. today its microwave or order out 5 nites a week on average. factor in dependency by many--social services to social security to medicare... we are a rather dependent lot on a 3 day refresh cycle for most goods and services; services which fall apart with out a fresh influx of parts.

A Stop at Willoughby may be on many maps sooner than has been planned for by many.

Claude,

So no war. :-)

You miss my point on gold. How do I know your gold is real if you buy a good from me? Why do I trust you? How do you pay for small priced items with a gold coin worth 1400 bucks? I ask practical questions. Yes gold has use in the past. That doesnt answer the practical questions on its use today with fiat paper money and an electronic credit based financial system (the electronic credit and payment systems never existed). I can use anabacus. How does my life change practically if it's my only choice to use today. I avoid getting into more of an argument on gold as money. It is useful and it has practical problems. Go to the blog link of Ferfal in Argentina. Practically speaking he uses small precious metal earrings, rings etc like coins. Thats what actually works/happens in Argentina. I think you may really like the blog due to its practical nature. Let me know what you think.

My camper idea is fine for Katrina sized/style events. If supply chains disrupt all over the US and our "just in time" inventory delivery system seizes, all of the US or certain geographic locations may cease to get goods. While I can drive far enough in a localized natural disaster, there is risk I cannot if its systemic to the US. I understand this. You can create any scenario that will make my camper idea sub-optimal/impractical. I rather have the option of mobility than not. I spoke to the water issue with my link to the purifier and bug out idea to a lake/stream campsite. Clink on the link. The purifier is awesome. Sincerely, get one. Mobility gives us options. I like options. Katrina was a huge event. The camper idea works great.

You raise issues on the camper idea like "everybody" will be doing that. Every, All, Never, None, Always are Big Words. The devil is in the detail. I agree with you that lots of people will leave and getting out early is a tactical priority if possible. Or your issue that gas will be totally gone. Well yes it may be an issue. So I already prepare for these issues regarding where I go and my routes and my extra fuel tank etc. There is ZERO perfect solution here except in 20/20 hindsight. Period. I am stacking the odds tactically in my favor, thinking a few steps head during the crisis when I can, and staying focused on getting us to a place safely, however far, that has food/water/security. Stacking the odds. Your idea that its effectively/practically useless to consider/make a realistic option - I respectfully think differently. Are big difference is you stay and I go....lol

Firearms are tools. Use them for food if necessary. Use them for protection. A shotgun is a useful tool so I suggested it. I suggested one non lethal tactical use in the event I need to control a crowd. You seem to be arguing with me about my tactics. You made up a rebuttal scenario that validated your point and used that to generalize that my specific tactic was essentially too ineffective/problematic to consider useful. All tactics have their place where appropriate and where not. I offered both a tactic and a tool that were totally appropriate in certain applications.

Simply, if an angry mob in your OP social breakdown scenario comes down my street to loot my home, I have an Issue with that. I intend to analyze the situation and protect my home. I mentioned a valid, sub-lethal tactic for a gun-less crowd. As far as the SA issue goes you mention, I dont know what to say to you on that. SA is not some magic talisman. Your OP scenario...alots going on...the situation is fluid and potentially chaotic. S*** happens. You of all people know this. I gather that from other excellent posts of yours. :-)

I respect your intention to build a hard compound in your backyard. I offer some, I believe, important things to think about.

Cheers!

TVJ.....i think we have a mutual respect divided by a distance in years.

but 1st---anyone here remember Captain Kirk and the episode with the kids that age slow and like to play games---"foolies"?

that is all my rambling scenario is.
though i try to keep it realistic in the sense that if A than B,C and D may follow---what can, should we do about it?

i tried for my area to use a largish Land Rover type vehicle (2 actually) loaded with gear and fuel--and fuel in areas stashed along my intended route to ....lets say back roads to mid Vermont.

but as my daughter just moved to the area i described, i chose it for a 'foolie'.
please re-read on gold 'dimes.' and smalls. they are clearly marked as to weight and value--about as trustworthy as one can get/hope for. look up 'kitco'
i have played in the silver market ( got interested in coin collection when i delivered the newspaper) since 1964. and gold. it is a real, viable and universal method of barter.

ZERO perfect--we agree, no more needs be said cause for every this there are 6 of that...plan as best for the most likely happenings that you believe your area can/will experience.

i try to stay away from using strong words like 'all' or 'ever one' and use 'most' or 'many. though in a population of 100K , many can be a large number also--large enough to suck all the gas from the tanks in the ground and drive till they run out. hence my "Stay-in-place".

I'm gonna hope the mob passes me by--make my house bland--even go so far as to brake a few windows to make it look already looted. i build nothing more than to re-enforce a section of the basement against the possibility that they decide to check out my house. but if they decide to do more than casual damage they may find my plan B and C not to their liking.

let it be that we both make out---as well as possible till our illustrious leaders figure out how to best profit from our misfortune while making it seem like they have our best interests in mind

I think a great read for anyone on this thread would be "One Second After". It's a great book about TEOTWAWKI. I bought and listened to the audio book during my commute over 2 weeks and found myself trying to stretch it out because it was so good.

Another resource would be Fer Fal's website. His "world" ended when Argentina's economy collapsed in 2002 and he chronicled the changes very nicely on his blog. This entry is the best: SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA: Thoughts on Urban Survival (2005)

Its great to have abug in strategy, but you need a plan to leave and be somewhere else if need be

I am impressed with the articulate responses posted on this site. As mentioned there is no perfect plan but what are your intentions when you are holed up in your home that has food and water and ammo when 50 armed gang members come to your door? The same question applies if you are on the road in your camper or at your retreat. I wish I had all the answers, if they exist.

And this is why I rarely make it through more than half the entries of a like thread.

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Originally Posted by Guantes

There is a considerable difference between social unrest/riots/etc and TEOTWAWKI.

The former generally starts in the inner cities and may move to the suburbs. That depends on the size of the social unrest/riot/etc and the forces that are brought to bear to quell it. Commerce (food, etc) and services (electricity, nat gas, water, gasoline) outside the areas involved are usually unaffected.

The latter is an entirely different matter. Depending on the nature of the event, commerce and services will likely cease over wide areas, if not virtually everywhere. Movement by vehicle near heavily populated areas will probably be difficult or untenable due to abandon vehicles on freeways and highways.

I think that your preparations would be viable if not excessive for the former, but not viable for the latter. Six to eight armed people will not be proof against any armed group of any size. The psychological stress of remaining hidden with eight children will be immense. Should you manage the above for three months, what will you do for food and water after that?

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I agree G, but for the last sentence, also consider that after 3 months, there would be considerable die-off and dispersion. That's not actually a bad cushion.....if you can handle the rest of the things you mentioned :smile:

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Originally Posted by claude clay

the wife and I and 2 neighbors have been thinking about how and where we live; south west of DC leaves us little options should social unrest become a reality. The 6 of us, along with 8 kids from 18 months to 11 are in agreement that unrest would accrue in stages--not with much knowledge added from the 'experts'. Our 3 homes in a row back up against a hill and we have been doing small things over the past 3 years: digging into the hill to relive our youth with forts--try to spin what we do as something innocuous. Though a bit better constructed and with a generator and some branches for hygiene and storage. plan is loosely that 'we the people' will know nothing about what is truly happening in the downtown parts of the cities. Our 1st event driven conditions will --consensus here is that they inner peoples will take 3 to 8 days to eat them selves out of whats in their neighborhood and than begin moving on the suburbs. Little or no gasoline means they will move by foot in mass and rest and loot by night.

Optimally we tunnel from house to house and than to the hill. couple more years by hand ( cover our work with 'home improvements'-- pool, fancy gardesns.....)
map wise after 'they' arrive it would be a week before --they either get & burn everything and move on or--the govt gets some plan of action which actually gets safe back into our lives.

decisions already made

---we will not let 'them, the govt' make us leave, we hide from them as well as the more obvious thieves.
---we have ( will have ) 3 months supplies; food, water , medicine, etc
---we are willing to let the looters burn, or......still discussing the pros of defense vs the cons of letting then know we are there.

---we do not wish to overtly confront our own young men and women in the dress of our military, yet we will not allow ourselves to be 'taken to a camp for our safety"
---lots of lines to be drawn and were to put them and with how much wiggle room....

---and survival tools include guns and ammo. 4 of the 6 adults are better than average and the 11 year old boy is a rifle champ.

right now i question what type of training we can all benefit from and the selection of guns we should work with.

and after the '90 days' there is barter ( have some small gold coins and silved......and ammo to carefully trade.

ideas, help please...can we do TEOTWAWKI one step deeper in both directions?

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OK, I've read the entire thread and will just speak to some specifics in the OP's post, focusing on the longer-term, more wide-spread disaster scenario.

I think that your redoubt will not go unnoticed. Other neighbors or scavengers will find it....you will need substantial outside defenses and tons of ammo. Things like claymores, booby traps that can be put in place after SHTF.

Yes, it will take some time for inner city people to reach you but they will be pushing tens of thousands in front of them. All desperate people. So the masses will reach you sooner than 3 days. Level of desperation in 3 days will be lower....but Americans are used to eating constantly so....

At the 90 day point, anything that is not immediately useful, like food and tools and weapons will be useless. Gold and silver wont have much value until there is some sort of social structure that has a use for it (or the indications of such returning in the near future).

For a very good resource on gun and ammo choice, among many other things for a long-term strategy like you're planning (but in a nearly hopeless area IMO), have you read "Patriots, A Novel of Survival in the Coming Collapse" by James Wesley Rawles? It was published in 2009 and is very interesting. I dont agree with alot of things in the book, but the details on weaponry and defenses are very good.

Fun topic! I think these things can be constructive and entertaining.

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Originally Posted by 9MMare

OK, I've read the entire thread and will just speak to some specifics in the OP's post, focusing on the longer-term, more wide-spread disaster scenario.

I think that your redoubt will not go unnoticed. Other neighbors or scavengers will find it....you will need substantial outside defenses and tons of ammo. Things like claymores, booby traps that can be put in place after SHTF.

Yes, it will take some time for inner city people to reach you but they will be pushing tens of thousands in front of them. All desperate people. So the masses will reach you sooner than 3 days. Level of desperation in 3 days will be lower....but Americans are used to eating constantly so....

At the 90 day point, anything that is not immediately useful, like food and tools and weapons will be useless. Gold and silver wont have much value until there is some sort of social structure that has a use for it (or the indications of such returning in the near future).

For a very good resource on gun and ammo choice, among many other things for a long-term strategy like you're planning (but in a nearly hopeless area IMO), have you read "Patriots, A Novel of Survival in the Coming Collapse" by James Wesley Rawles? It was published in 2009 and is very interesting. I dont agree with alot of things in the book, but the details on weaponry and defenses are very good.

Fun topic! I think these things can be constructive and entertaining.

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The book, "Patriots" is a very good book as far as fiction goes, IMHO. It also could be used as a planning guide since the author goes into great detail on equipment selection, prepardness, and there are even sections that deal superficially with first aid, ie blood transfusion reference charts. There are sections that give general information for food storage, explosive usage and tactical training, all of which are interesting, but probably would require more information than is covered in the book. There are sections where reference books are even listed however.

I think the scariest thing about the book is the first couple of chapters, in that the premise for the social/economic collapse and the eventual "foreign aid" invasion at the end are probably actually possible scenarios.