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Planned Bug In Place...Whats To Have?

3K views 41 replies 24 participants last post by  TedBeau 
#1 ·
the wife and I and 2 neighbors have been thinking about how and where we live; south west of DC leaves us little options should social unrest become a reality. The 6 of us, along with 8 kids from 18 months to 11 are in agreement that unrest would accrue in stages--not with much knowledge added from the 'experts'. Our 3 homes in a row back up against a hill and we have been doing small things over the past 3 years: digging into the hill to relive our youth with forts--try to spin what we do as something innocuous. Though a bit better constructed and with a generator and some branches for hygiene and storage. plan is loosely that 'we the people' will know nothing about what is truly happening in the downtown parts of the cities. Our 1st event driven conditions will --consensus here is that they inner peoples will take 3 to 8 days to eat them selves out of whats in their neighborhood and than begin moving on the suburbs. Little or no gasoline means they will move by foot in mass and rest and loot by night.

Optimally we tunnel from house to house and than to the hill. couple more years by hand ( cover our work with 'home improvements'-- pool, fancy gardesns.....)
map wise after 'they' arrive it would be a week before --they either get & burn everything and move on or--the govt gets some plan of action which actually gets safe back into our lives.

decisions already made

---we will not let 'them, the govt' make us leave, we hide from them as well as the more obvious thieves.
---we have ( will have ) 3 months supplies; food, water , medicine, etc
---we are willing to let the looters burn, or......still discussing the pros of defense vs the cons of letting then know we are there.

---we do not wish to overtly confront our own young men and women in the dress of our military, yet we will not allow ourselves to be 'taken to a camp for our safety"
---lots of lines to be drawn and were to put them and with how much wiggle room....

---and survival tools include guns and ammo. 4 of the 6 adults are better than average and the 11 year old boy is a rifle champ.

right now i question what type of training we can all benefit from and the selection of guns we should work with.

and after the '90 days' there is barter ( have some small gold coins and silved......and ammo to carefully trade.

ideas, help please...can we do TEOTWAWKI one step deeper in both directions?
 
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#2 ·
Depends on your preference, and what your comfortable carrying. For some it's a snubbie, for others a smaller semi auto, and still others will carry a full size gun for their second (back up).
 
#5 ·
There is a considerable difference between social unrest/riots/etc and TEOTWAWKI.

The former generally starts in the inner cities and may move to the suburbs. That depends on the size of the social unrest/riot/etc and the forces that are brought to bear to quell it. Commerce (food, etc) and services (electricity, nat gas, water, gasoline) outside the areas involved are usually unaffected.

The latter is an entirely different matter. Depending on the nature of the event, commerce and services will likely cease over wide areas, if not virtually everywhere. Movement by vehicle near heavily populated areas will probably be difficult or untenable due to abandon vehicles on freeways and highways.

I think that your preparations would be viable if not excessive for the former, but not viable for the latter. Six to eight armed people will not be proof against any armed group of any size. The psychological stress of remaining hidden with eight children will be immense. Should you manage the above for three months, what will you do for food and water after that?
 
#17 ·
There is a considerable difference between social unrest/riots/etc and TEOTWAWKI.

The former generally starts in the inner cities and may move to the suburbs. That depends on the size of the social unrest/riot/etc and the forces that are brought to bear to quell it. Commerce (food, etc) and services (electricity, nat gas, water, gasoline) outside the areas involved are usually unaffected.

The latter is an entirely different matter. Depending on the nature of the event, commerce and services will likely cease over wide areas, if not virtually everywhere. Movement by vehicle near heavily populated areas will probably be difficult or untenable due to abandon vehicles on freeways and highways.
Where these two types of situations intersect is described in the Chris Bird book, Thank God I Had A Gun, and also here: HURRICANE KATRINA

Offered as a real-world example, from which to draw your own conclusions about elements of preparedness.
 
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#6 ·
In the event of a breakdown in the ordinary infrastructure of society, what makes you think there will be a need to hide or protect against marauding gangs of villains? Do you think that poorly of your fellow citizens?

If you do, in fact, believe that everyone around you is a member of the mindless zombie flesh-eating hordes and only you and your neighbors are civilized, then you may have problems larger than a redoubt can address.

What we've seen in Japan, China, Russia, and other places that have suffered massive catastrophes is that civilization continues, as it always has. Rather than hiding in holes and hording goods, it's incumbent on the able survivors to lead reconstruction and relief efforts.
 
#9 ·
the 90 days is a (somewhat realistic) time span that the govt would need to bring under control and distribute resources to a large number of affected areas. areas being town lets in and around med to large cities (50K population ). problem is gasolines , diesel on which goods move. or rather will not move till the docks are under control and the passage ways ( highways) are safe to travel again.

that 'we' the hidden would try to avoid contact with the marauding peoples rather than defend a home from damage hurts the psyche but may be the proper thing to do. along with Capt Dave and the boyscout guide I'm wanting a precision rifle, silenced and effective past 600 yards. let any who are making trouble ponder their strategy from the great far-away. a 1911 with red dot for inside 100 yards and a some 22's ( cz-452 for the cooking pot).

exit strategy, actually 2 besides the tunnel to one of the houses. ideally one wold go deep into the hill and have a high up view of the area. perhaps even get a camera up there powered by the generate/ batteries.
 
#10 ·
.

right now i question what type of training we can all benefit from and the selection of guns we should work with.

and after the '90 days' there is barter ( have some small gold coins and silved......and ammo to carefully trade.

ideas, help please...can we do TEOTWAWKI one step deeper in both directions?
As for training, I would encourage you to consider Tactical Response, and the following courses they offer: Fighting Pistol, Fighting Rifle, Fighting Shotgun, BugOut101, and Immediate Action Medical. You can build on your training from there. Don't forget to have a good .22 rifle and ammo (i.e. Ruger 10-22 for teaching the kids) for trading as well. Perhaps consider an Armorers class for your weapons and spare parts for common items. Don't forget tactical and/or personal communications that you could utilize between "bunkered" locations in the hill. Teach the kids how to shoot, how to use a pocket knife, basic cooking, gear maintenance (i.e. flashlights, first aid kit, etc), situational awareness, self aid, first aid, and how to "lost proof" themselves (i.e. visual signals, whistles, etc). Don't forget to have a couple of good survival (back to the basics type) books. Try this site for the books: http://www.survivalblog.com/bookshelf.html ....

I'll stop...this should keep the families busy for a while!!! JMO
 
#11 ·
TEOTWAWKI = "Book of Eli" type situation. I don't think anyone is really prepared for that situation.

I don't know if I want to be either.

I am pretty prepared for disasters/civil unrest/limited anarchy in the short term. Four to six months, a year at the outside, if things don't start to stabilize by then, and people don't start rebuilding, a lot of people are going to be in a world of hurt.

I have some skills and a working brain for when supplies are gone or unavailable. It's hard to grow your own food and farm if you have to be on the move or if the land is destroyed. I don't look forward to having to be a long term scavenger. Just getting too old to do that.

What I have at my disposal is living in a small rural community with abundant cattle, crop and poultry resources. Everyone knows everyone and pretty supportive of their neighbors. I believe our town will go on lock-down, enforce and prevent outsiders from pillaging our resources.

If circumstances dictate having to leave the area, things are not going to be fun.
 
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#13 ·
Bark'n said:
What I have at my disposal is living in a small rural community with abundant cattle, crop and poultry resources. Everyone knows everyone and pretty supportive of their neighbors. I believe our town will go on lock-down, enforce and prevent outsiders from pillaging our resources.
My choice also. A number of the survival gurus favored a small town, including Mel Tappan.
 
#15 ·
Shockwave, Guantes and Hamlet have said it all. Hey--to each his own. If you really believe that your actions are necessary, have at it.
The scenario being discussed in this thread reminds me of a Twilight show in which a poorly-sighted bookworm of a man, who works in a bank, is reading a book in the bank vault when essentially all life disappears in some form of cataclysmic event. He comes out from the vault with his book. a firearm that was in the vault, and is kind of relieved that he can spend all his time reading books now that society has left him alone. As he sits on the bank steps after taking his glasses off, he ends up stepping on the glasses and destroys them and now cannot see very well. The show ends with him sitting there alone with the gun, his broken glasses, the book he loves, and no one to bother him---the show leaves it up to you to decide what he will do now.
Bottom line: Enjoy life to its fullest, play golf as Hamlet said, and yah--do some planning for disasters--but apocalypse? Hey-whatever grabs you.
Peace my friend and God Bless.
 
#16 ·
kelcarry....and let us not forget the episode where the aliens 'play' with the towns folks electricity...let the casting of aspersion's begin.

hamlet--golf and lots of range time...wwanna pop them bad boy townies from 600 yards....or not at all?

az---its why i like ua....you see to the heart, errr--brains of the matter

Bark'n--you come real close to the direction i was heading: them on he outside can survive without the cities; not so much the other way around

first sarg--I've either taught or attended those type classes but for basic EMT, there a neighbor thats a firefighter/EMT would fit well in the "cave"

--->I'm along the lines of economic collapse that the govt just can not hide nor lie away. the resulting lose of social services ( and SS) will make for the many a tough period in time. which i guess to be less than 3 months. but more that 3 weeks. our country and its leadership as it is today could not handle a Great Depression. all them years ago didn't do all that well either--but the many did survive.

i live in CT between NYC and Boston...not a good location. actually, not good in many ways, even in our oh so great present economy.
and at my age id be bugged by what happens, but not to the point of movin on.
stay in place with 3 months of food, water, meds--the basics; and listen daily on the ham radio with my ultra quiet generator.

thank you all.
 
#18 · (Edited)
TEOTW.....I find it a big canard.

TEOTW comes with a whole host of unknowns and paranoia and unrealistic assumptions. Like, say, I am still alive. LoL. Ok then.

I rather prepare for a natural event like Katrina for example and think that way. There is data on it. You can read about the problems. It actually does happen. See Gasmitty's post and links above this post.

TEOTW...you may be dead immediately. Living in Washington DC, you are vapor in the event of TEOTW nuclear War. A group hug and sharing love for one another is way more important at that moment IMO.

Gold coins have problems: Are you going to shave off the gold to pay for small buys of things? How do you keep track of what gold is worth at any given moment? Gold futures/Spot market trade essentially 24/7 and the price will be extremely volatile in this situation.

Where do you get your quotes to show the current value when you pay for stuff? To make sure you avoid getting ripped off? If you can get quotes on your Android phone, is it really TEOTW? How do you agree with anyone on the price. You want higher value, they want lower. Gold is very problematic from a practical sense. It sounds good, but delve deeper into its actual practical application/substitution for dollars and fungible credit.

Then there is the issue of huge .gov taxation of gold in one fell swipe of the pen. Or .gov states you can only trade gold for dollars at certain too big to fail banks, that trade with you at a big discount to profit and discourage trading of gold, but can confirm the value of gold numismatic-ally and TAX you heavily on the spot. Gold is the financial enemy to .gov in TSHTF scenario. Do you think they will just tacitly allow their fiat currency that gives all their financial power to be voluntarily eroded? Think Nixon and Bretton Woods; Think FDR and gold confiscation. Both really occurred under extremely stressful financial situations.



Diamonds are below the radar currently. GIA certifications for value standardization. And you can hide them easily, they are light...etc. Diamonds have problems too. Like no active trading markets, huge bid ask spreads with singular local sellers/pawnshops....etc

Gold fraud will be massively lucrative during TEOTWAWKI. Who the hell can tell whats real at the grocery store, buying something from an individual; How many numismatists exist to value and certify your gold is real? at the store.....at first its fine....once the fraud starts and catches fire, who trusts gold then.

Become a numismatist for your new post apocalypse job.

Have a stash of hard cash. ATM cash gets rationed, will go immediately. Cash is gold right up front. Everyone uses it/will go to it until they realize hard items matter more. Credit cards can freeze up due to banking credit crunch, downed communication lines at point of purchase...etc.

Collect real, useful items/tools if you need something to do/trade.

Supply chain breakdown: Everyone needs food and fuel and drinking water and car/truck/vehicle parts, tires/repair kit. Either people barter for it with other goods or steal/take by force to survive.

I suggest a water source and purifier like this: http://www.nitro-pak.com/products/w...-filters/katadyn-pocket-filter-bonus-pak-kit; things to hold purified water; maybe a generator.

If you run your lights when no one else can, you become a pretty obvious target.

I agree with Shockwave and helping out. CC while doing so.

If you dig in at a particular place, problems occur if that place gets too hot (too many zombies...lol....nuclear accident...total natural disaster...whatever). Living in DC, you are scorched earth and dust in a nuclear war.

Frankly, I prefer to have a truck, camper and essentials for living for a month or two, along with self defense tools, easily packed and ready to go. Cash to backup CCards/ATM which may be problematic. Have a shotgun and lots of ammo as one of your tools. Crowd control: Bounce the rounds off the pavement in front of the crowd to start if appropriate. Less than lethal and gets your point across without outright killing anyone.

Just drive somewhere away from the problem area for an extended camping trip. Make it fun. Drive to a place of moderate climate next to a full water source/lake/river.

Make sure family members know how to shoot if/when you leave. Make sure they can emotionally pull the trigger. Give them permission. Make it OK. Work through the emotional glitches/issues supportively.

Stay away from unprepared people asking for stuff where you put down/live. They are high risk to take your stuff. Keep family close. I read real stories of desperate people during Katrina holding a family member and/or pet hostage using lethal tools for food/equipment. Avoid this. Be a very hard target. Find other ways to give back and help if possible. If someone gets the drop, Find/Create the low risk moment - maybe through a feigned compliance tactic(s) if no other choice - and kill them with immediacy to neutralize them. Keep your family safe. What happens if word gets out you are a low risk convenience store with lots of important stuff to survive.

Argentina had sudden economic stop in 2001 and no TEOTW....mobs yes. Violence yes. Go here for a guy that knows it firsthand: SURVIVING IN ARGENTINA He avoids tinfoil like plague.

Your ability to think creatively on your feet is just as important as any of the above. So is sustained optimism and making "everyday life" fun to keep moral at a baseline constant hopeful/optimistic level. Get lots of board games. No one seems to talk about this. Therefore, I know odds are its really important. The stuff people "always" talk about, maybe not so much.

Zombies provide so much more emotional juice than this boring stuff. Stay away from tinfoil hat wearers, gold bugs, paranoia freaks. Unless I guess you are addicted to the emotional juice they stoke. That internal juice is mostly incompatible with successful, practical survival IMO.

At the end of the day, I rather plan for some unrest/mob/temporary natural disaster then TEOTW. All the things I need for the unrest/mob/temporary natural disaster apply first anyways.
 
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#20 ·
Hyper-focus on fear produces more fear, not security.


The proximate threat the OP faces isn't social Armageddon but mental Armageddon. His mind will kill his life.
 
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#22 ·
hamlet, you are of course entitled to an opinion as am i .....please refer to my sig line as my opinion of your statement.
 
#21 ·
TVJ---- we are not on the same page—

I have been talking around a social/ economic collapse that is nation wide. no way are nukes a part of this scenario.
As for gold—i said ‘small’ gold and silver. Such as gold dimes (today around $200 each) and silver coin...ounces at $35. 4000 or more years of civilization and gold been used as barter, so there is a system in effect to allow for people to exchange goods and services for metal. And getting ‘ripped off’. Depends on how astute you are with the barter system and the value of ‘things’ such as people’s time and what a products value is to you and the person who has it.

Your truck, camper starts off as viable but than many others are doing the same and you need gas to get places and water when you get there....along with everyone else who got there also. This morphs into a ‘tent’ city and i fear that the strong will rule there.

Firearms are necessary. More for gathering food than crowd control. I say this cause you will likely not be the only one in a crowd with a gun. And people do tend to reply in kind to incoming. Perhaps shooting to make a last ditch effort to get away; but than your tactics were not good to begin with ( or you turned down the wrong road...) and fate is eventually going to catch up to you.

Argentina may for my example a good study. I have not read the book you suggest though how well it would cross over to the USA ( and different events may be unfolding mer miles apart) can be debated.in this case But im going at this with families in mind ans staying under the radar is one of my riteria.

I think i am understanding your last sentence to be as i had in mind.

It could well be a series of acts by nature that precedes the economic troubles; Japan is very quiet about is troubles.....rather ominous given their position as a world power. And OPEC is talking about a “OPEC Dollar” that would have grave consequences to the US Dollar in the worlds financial arena. But our leader and the press seem to think this event is not worth sharing with those who will most be affected by it---the tax payer who elected them.
For sure we live on borrowed money and the rates would be higher...and we are now realizing that we can not even afford the current interest on our loans.

Thoughts?
 
#24 ·
hamlet---you so obviously read what you want and leave out what you don't....
the entire thread is a foolie.....i said i live in CT and other things you so obviously read past as to make further discussion with you, well...

---------------------

it is pointless to argue with a moron.
they will drag you down to their level and than beat you with experience. LL
 
#26 ·
IMHO there is nothing wrong with taking care of yourself and family by being prepared to a level that you can afford and be comfortable with.

Collectively, as citizens, our levels of preparedness is a factor that helps support the resilience of our country.

If SHTF I know which side of the fan I want to be on.
 
#28 ·
how to say it so it is understood----ITS A SCENARIO

i have no fears, planing for things and enjoy life are not mutually exclusive. we BOTH it seems grew up during the Cuban Missile Crises yet the faith we had in our government ( lies even than-but thats neither here nor there in this discussion) faith, we no longer have. but that doesn't change my day-to-day way of doing things either. one can know they are being lied to: accept that it is the way things are done and get on with it.

hamlets global direction had not a thing to do with my asking about how it is if our inner cities went without food for a few days...not just one or two cities cause of weather or earthquake, but economic upheaval that the govt could not gloss over. no bombs. no foreign invasion. read what was postulated.
 
#29 ·
I think we know what you postulated but we didn't know that it was fictional or a disguised point you were making - whatever the post was.

Our responses were to a hyper-inflation of danger that that post contained - and it was pointed out by comparison to one real historical danger to show the post's is a psychological/attitudinal matter rather than an external problem. The fact that the actual event was a threatened external attack and your post's a cataclysmic domestic collapse is beside the point.

Might help to post "Fictional Scenario" or something similar at the top....
 
#30 ·
quote from hamlet in bold--Might help to post "Fictional Scenario" or something similar at the top.... and so it continues that i am being drug down...


""The term scenario is also used for an account or synopsis of a projected course of action, events or situations. Scenario development is used in policy planning, organisational development and generally, when organisations wish to test strategies against uncertain future developments.

Scenarios are widely used by organisations of all types to understand different ways that future events might unfold. Scenario planning or scenario analysis is a complex business process related to futures studies.

In this sense, scenarios should not be used to speculate on what has happened in the past. According to the Forecasting Dictionary, a scenario is “a story about what happened in the future”. Vivid scenarios distort people's perceptions of the likelihood of the events they describe. Scenarios can therefore be used to overcome resistance to unpopular forecasts. Gregory and Duran (2001) [1] examine principles for the use of scenarios in gaining acceptance of forecasts.""

with due difference to Wiki and the BOLD is mine.
and for sure there seems to be some resistance here.

as well as a distinct lack of knowledge by some that the term scenario means fictional.

thread drift here is major--if it can not be brought back in line than perhaps.....let it go.
 
#31 ·
Some observations about some of the posts, with comments on how I see it but definatley something to think about and ponder.


In the event of a breakdown in the ordinary infrastructure of society, what makes you think there will be a need to hide or protect against marauding gangs of villains? Do you think that poorly of your fellow citizens?
This isnt Japan. This is the United States. A large percentage of the population lives off of the government milk jug. When it runs dry, those people will be unprepared and things will get crazy. The small towns will fare better than the big city welfare types. When they get hungry,thirsty and scared, big citys will NOT be the place to be.

An exit plan.
Very important. Even the fortified castles of Europe has secret getaways. Our firebases in Vietnam had them. You must have an exit plan, your survival may depend on it.

Rather than hiding in holes and hording goods, it's incumbent on the able survivors to lead reconstruction and relief efforts.
True statement...but you have to SURVIVE the initial onslaught first. Reconstruction comes after the panic, not before.

I'm wanting a precision rifle, silenced and effective past 600 yards.
You can have one or the other but not both. The quietest suppressed rifles use subsonic ammo which,although it's fairly quiet has the trajectory of a rainbow. 300 yards is about the maximum effective range. If you use a suppressor on a rifle that shoots supersonic, you'll have the ability to hit far off, but the rifle will no means be quiet and the sonic blast is very evident.

There are no indications now or in our history that would make these thoughts or preparations a response to reality - there's just life as usual - including bad economies for awhile and all that. If you want to take every negative as promising catastrophe, you'll find more negatives and more catastrophe.
Never at any point in time or history, have we had a popluation so dependent on someone else for their survival. History is full of examples. TEOTWAWKI may not be the same for you a few hundred miles away...but if my world is crashing down and people are starving to death and in a blind panic it will be TEOTWAKI for me.

The proximate threat the OP faces isn't social Armageddon but mental Armageddon. His mind will kill his life.
On the contrary...his mind can accept that things may change for the worst. His mindset will go a long way to ensuring his survival. People that ignore the fact that it could happen because it scares them, will be rotting carcasses littering the countryside with the mistaken beleif that it couldnt happen here.

We do not presently have external enemies capable of doing global harm to our nation. We have a military with far greater response ability than back then. Bad stuff can happen of course as it did on 9/11, but no other nation is going to take us out in some massive violent attack.
Another assumption, yet one that the Federal Government does not share. There are several nations that could put the hurt on us. A coordinated terrorist strike with suitcase nukes could take us out in the blink of an eye, and the Government beleives it enough to spend billions on it and drill on that scenario. A couple of well place EMP blasts and our response cababilty would be severly diminished. Yeah, it could happen and if it does, no amount of preparation will be enough.

I am of the thought process that it is better to prepare and not need it than it is to need it and not have it. If you dont need it, thats great and everyone lives happily ever after. If you do not it and you were foolish enough to say it couldnt happen here, you'll be on a list somewhere of people that perished.
 
#32 · (Edited)
In the event of a breakdown in the ordinary infrastructure of society, what makes you think there will be a need to hide or protect against marauding gangs of villains?
If people will burn down portions of their own cities just because their favorite sports teams lose, they damn sure will not remain civilized if they have no heat, food, water, or their beer and television.
Do you think that poorly of your fellow citizens?
Sadly, I do.
 
#33 ·
HotGuns....thank you for tying things together and bring the thread back in the manor i had worked toward.
the supersonic/ 600 meters was a foolish mis-statement by me, especially as i do F-1 with my Rem 700/ 308.

but the idea of what we will face, perhaps varies by region, indeed even separated by a small mountain may make a difference.
50 years ago(around the time of JFK) 50 % of the population was rural and today i believe it is 18%. and even the suburban house wife in 1960 could take a chicken from the meat market- who took off the head; to home where she finished the 'cooking'. today its microwave or order out 5 nites a week on average. factor in dependency by many--social services to social security to medicare... we are a rather dependent lot on a 3 day refresh cycle for most goods and services; services which fall apart with out a fresh influx of parts.

A Stop at Willoughby may be on many maps sooner than has been planned for by many.
 
#34 ·
Claude,

So no war. :)

You miss my point on gold. How do I know your gold is real if you buy a good from me? Why do I trust you? How do you pay for small priced items with a gold coin worth 1400 bucks? I ask practical questions. Yes gold has use in the past. That doesnt answer the practical questions on its use today with fiat paper money and an electronic credit based financial system (the electronic credit and payment systems never existed). I can use anabacus. How does my life change practically if it's my only choice to use today. I avoid getting into more of an argument on gold as money. It is useful and it has practical problems. Go to the blog link of Ferfal in Argentina. Practically speaking he uses small precious metal earrings, rings etc like coins. Thats what actually works/happens in Argentina. I think you may really like the blog due to its practical nature. Let me know what you think.

My camper idea is fine for Katrina sized/style events. If supply chains disrupt all over the US and our "just in time" inventory delivery system seizes, all of the US or certain geographic locations may cease to get goods. While I can drive far enough in a localized natural disaster, there is risk I cannot if its systemic to the US. I understand this. You can create any scenario that will make my camper idea sub-optimal/impractical. I rather have the option of mobility than not. I spoke to the water issue with my link to the purifier and bug out idea to a lake/stream campsite. Clink on the link. The purifier is awesome. Sincerely, get one. Mobility gives us options. I like options. Katrina was a huge event. The camper idea works great.

You raise issues on the camper idea like "everybody" will be doing that. Every, All, Never, None, Always are Big Words. The devil is in the detail. I agree with you that lots of people will leave and getting out early is a tactical priority if possible. Or your issue that gas will be totally gone. Well yes it may be an issue. So I already prepare for these issues regarding where I go and my routes and my extra fuel tank etc. There is ZERO perfect solution here except in 20/20 hindsight. Period. I am stacking the odds tactically in my favor, thinking a few steps head during the crisis when I can, and staying focused on getting us to a place safely, however far, that has food/water/security. Stacking the odds. Your idea that its effectively/practically useless to consider/make a realistic option - I respectfully think differently. Are big difference is you stay and I go....lol

Firearms are tools. Use them for food if necessary. Use them for protection. A shotgun is a useful tool so I suggested it. I suggested one non lethal tactical use in the event I need to control a crowd. You seem to be arguing with me about my tactics. You made up a rebuttal scenario that validated your point and used that to generalize that my specific tactic was essentially too ineffective/problematic to consider useful. All tactics have their place where appropriate and where not. I offered both a tactic and a tool that were totally appropriate in certain applications.

Simply, if an angry mob in your OP social breakdown scenario comes down my street to loot my home, I have an Issue with that. I intend to analyze the situation and protect my home. I mentioned a valid, sub-lethal tactic for a gun-less crowd. As far as the SA issue goes you mention, I dont know what to say to you on that. SA is not some magic talisman. Your OP scenario...alots going on...the situation is fluid and potentially chaotic. S*** happens. You of all people know this. I gather that from other excellent posts of yours. :)

I respect your intention to build a hard compound in your backyard. I offer some, I believe, important things to think about.

Cheers!
 
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