Issue with the neighbor
This is a discussion on Issue with the neighbor within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a real situation that happened with the neighbor just a couple days ago. Im real curious how others would have handeled it, and ...
July 4th, 2011 02:45 PM
Issue with the neighbor
This is a real situation that happened with the neighbor just a couple days ago. Im real curious how others would have handeled it, and how otheres would handle the "What-If's" that keep running through my mind.
Recently my neighbors and I have not been seeing eye to eye on things. I decided that we would no longer "associate" with them and just go our seperate ways as friends, and just remain cordial neighbors. All this stems to some survey lines that were painted on the curb between our houses. The neighbor kept making a big deal about these survey lines, pretty much accusing me of trying to "steal his property".
The male neighbor had been sending some rude text messages here and there about nit picky little things, this was the final straw for me. We had a few of their "things" like a couple tools, a basketball goal, etc, that I returned to their possession after the final text message. A few days later he came over while I was outside working on my truck and said "Lets talk". Thinking we could have a discussion man to man I agreed. Mind you, we'd never had any heated discussions before this, no arguements or anything, everything prior to this had been fine, to the point we'd actually considered them good friends.
Durring the discussion we were both outside, in my driveway. I normally carry, however, I was wearing gym shorts, and a tank top since it was 102* outside and we were both sweating bullets, so at this time I was un-armed. Closest weapon was secured inside, upstairs.
The conversation finally came down to him saying "Proove I sent you said rude text message", and in turn me saying "Proove I didn't" after a few rounds and rounds of that I finally said "_____ How old are you" (neighbors name ommited for obvious reasons) His response was "Old enough to kick your ass". I immediately turned around and went inside. Started explain to the wife what just happened. About 3 minutes later I get a loud pounding on the door. Expecting it to be Him coming back to eat some crow I opened the door to find a full tactical response from the police department. Three officers at the door, guns drawn, one officer i could see behind a car door with some variation of an M-16 pointed directly at me, and another officer in the nealing prone position behind a tree across the street, again, with some variation of an M-16 pointed at me. As soon as they saw I was completly unarmed and in a calm, cool, and collected attitude all weapons were holstered, and the assault riffles were stored, and those two officers drove of.
After speaking with the officers about the ordeal, I was informed that he (neighbor) had called the police and reported that I had threatened him with a gun. This is where the conversation with me and the police got rather interesting. The police asked how he knew I had a gun, if (as I was saying) I didn't have the gun on me. I pointed out that state law regarding concealed carry requires you to inform someone that you are carrying a concealed weapon if you enter their property, in which I'd done in the past, with his approval. They apparently couldn't put the logic together as to how did he know I had a weapon if I really didn't have it on me etc. etc.
Now, when I am in my house, or on my property (more specifically the back yard) I open carry. The conversation [with the police] somehow got to that topic, in which they told me "If you [I] have a concealed carry permit, the weapon must be concealed at all times, no matter what" This is where I disagree, however, I did not argue the point with them.
The interaction with the police ended with them filing a police report, with a promise that they would be forwarding it to the State Police to review possible revocation of my Concealed Carry Permit.
Here are my thoughts:
The neighbor had a 50/50 chance on his call to the police being correct. At the time I did NOT have a weapon on me, however, as I stated previously, I normally carry, hence his 50/50 chance of being correct.
1. What if I was carrying? Although I took the high road, and went inside (which castle doctrine states I don't have to)
2. The mere fact that he knows I own a weapon and have a CHL, opens him up to all sorts of avenues for harrassment, such as if I walk outside he could merely call the police and say I'm brandishing a weapon.... IF this were the case, at some point the police are going to say "enough is enough, maybe this guy really is brandishing a firemarm"
3. I can't find it anywhere that says I must conceal, or cannot open carry on my own property. (I may have been in the wrong with open carrying my backyard, and will correct if said law isn't found)
4. Would you have turned and walked away?
5. I have a 10 y/o daughter in the house, what would have happened had she seen the whole police force in our front yard, that would be truely devastating to her... If you were in the same shoes as I, what would you do here?
6. Would you have done, or do anything different?
7. I am going to get a copy of the police report tomorrow to see what was *actually* written down.
Thankfully the police gave a verbal no contact order to both parties (him and I, including our families). I have no plans to associate with them in any way shape or form, as this situation completey shows what they are capable and willing to do, in which I want my family to have no part of.
In the end, the police left without incident, but the whole thing has me a bit rattled.
Looking for your input.
July 4th, 2011 02:45 PM
July 4th, 2011 02:52 PM
Personally, I would be talking to an attorney, and not posting anything online about this. Once it is on the interweb, it stays there. You may want to ask a mod to shut down this thread for you.
Neighbors are kind of like in laws, even if you don't see eye to eye with them, it is best to remain cordial, because it is an interpersonal relationship that tends to last a while
Fortes Fortuna Juvat
Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
NRA Pistol/Rifle/Shotgun/Reloading Instructor, RSO, Ohio CHL Instructor
July 4th, 2011 03:07 PM
You have the right to open carry... And these are some of the problems open carry brings to the table. You can be as indignant as you want, you're still going to be scrutinized by those who don't like guns. And now, you're kind of under a microscope.
Missouri is an open carry state, and I rarely see people open carrying, except around hunting season. When I say rarely, I'm saying maybe twice in the last two or three years... Maybe. (again, except during deer season).
I don't know what you can do except try and let things blow over with your neighbor. I would keep my distance, and it would seem you now have what I would consider a hostile neighbor.
I have carried concealed ever since I got my permit and none of my neighbors know it. I carry 100% of the time, and again, no one knows it. I've never had the cops called on me, or a mini-swat team show up at my house.
You now know first hand how people with an agenda can make your life miserable. One thing is certain as I see it. You'll always going to be operating from a position of disadvantage when it comes to future dealings with your neighbor.
I agree that going over your options with an attorney likely won't hurt anything. I doubt your neighbor will find you here as long as your user name bears no resemblance to who you are. You may want to delete what state you live on your profile... that's totally not necessary to have here.
I'd much rather have the kind of disagreement you have with a relative of mine than I would my next door neighbor. I can control when and where I choose to be in the company of a relative I don't see eye to eye with. But a next door neighbor can deal you a lot of grief, my friend. You are in constant close proximity to them all the time, and will likely see him every day. Not good, as far as I'm concerned.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
July 4th, 2011 03:08 PM
Delete this thread and talk to an attorney asap!
July 4th, 2011 03:18 PM
Talk to an attorney and see about a restraining order against him...before he does it to you. Not sure about AR, but if a restraining order is issued against a gun owner, firearms must be removed and your permit suspended. Also, through your attorney, talk to the permit issuing authority and tell him/her what is going on and explain your purposes for carrying and it's not for brandishing or intimidation. Get to the permit-issuing authority soon, before or soon after the report hits his desk. That way you're not just a name on a piece of paper.
- know the difference
is a fancy name for crappy fighter
You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know
July 4th, 2011 03:27 PM
Here's some advice for you, since you're asking:
1. It is paramount to avoid conflict with neighbors. No matter how justified your plaint, forgive much, say little. A hostile neighbor can make your life very unhappy.
2. Find a way to patch this fiasco up, if you can.
If your neighbor likes bourbon or such, buy a nice bottle, bring it over, have a few drinks and shake on things. This is not weakness, it is about the permanent cessation of conflict.
Also, there's another lesson in all this about being discreet with your firearms. That's a more complicated matter and space here does not permit an extended exegesis, but it's something to think about in depth.
"It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."
July 4th, 2011 03:27 PM
Good luck to you. Please get an attorney and I'm sorry for the expense and stress.
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
July 4th, 2011 03:31 PM
This is exactly why I do not open carry. This guy has potentially compromised your ability to carry at all. Lawyer up, get this thread deleted & do not talk to ANYONE but your lawyer about this.
The best advice I got from my CC instructor was to SHUT UP if I am ever suspect in a crime. Speak with a lawyer & only a lawyer. A court can compel your spouse to testify in court but they can not make your lawyer testify. If you are Catholic you may speak with your Priest in confessional, but no other ground is considered off limits to a court.
"I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain."
- Roy Batty
July 4th, 2011 03:32 PM
I had a similar situation with one of my neighbors, but much worse. They called the PD on me more than a dozen times telling the Dispatcher that I had pulled my gun on them. In talking with a friend of mine who is a LEO, he informed me (in MI) that if the person thats calling in the offense doesnt sign a complaint on the subject that it is just lip service from the LEOs. Im not sure if its law where you are, but here if they sign a false Report they can get in a lot of trouble. Meaning you pull your gun on someone without it being a SD, thats a felony. If they file A false report on you saying that you pulled your gun and you didnt they will be charged with a felony.
We I made it clear to the police that the lip service will stop, and that my video camera was on and the gun was never in play they didnt like that. I also informed them that she needed to sign the report. They wouldnt allow her to do so they did make sure to tell her about the false reporting.After all the BS it finally stopped when she realized that the course she was on wasnt going to work for her. Anyways, this is long enough....Seek out an attorney and ask some questions, as I see it you should be fine. Im not a lawyer, but did stay at a holiday inn last night.
Don"t let stupid be your skill set....
July 4th, 2011 03:34 PM
1) Who painted these lines and why?
2) Did you do the smart thing and keep those harassing/threatening texts?
Other than that, only advice I can give is to contact the ASP to get their take on things, your local Prosecuting/District Attorney about harassment and filing false charges and hire a lawyer or at least seriously consider it. I'd also not OC on your property any time soon. Remember, not all LEO know the law they're supposed to be enforcing anywhere nearly as well as they should.
Arkansas Concealed Carry Instructor #12-751
If guns kill people, then:
Pincels miss spel werds;
Cars make people drive drunk;
And spoons made Rosie O'Donnel fat.
July 4th, 2011 03:34 PM
All the above suggestions make sense.
Obviously anyone can make any preposterous accusation about anything at any time.
I'm curious about the origins of the boundary dispute and who hired the surveyor and why, as this might tend to indicate a prior dispute which is now out of hand.
I would suggest that if the marks were placed by a licensed surveyor (and not by you), that's pretty much that, and his claim that you are trying to steal his land might be as wacky as his assertion that you confronted him with a gun.
Given what appear to be two false accusations on his part against you, take the police advice seriously and steer clear.
And don't answer my questions here as this thread needs to disappear and you need to consult an attorney---if only on the boundary dispute.
July 4th, 2011 06:22 PM
I'm the same way. The only one that knows is my wife and a buddy of mine that I work with that also carries.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
I live in some tightly compacted suburbs so it impossible not to run into your neighbor from time to time. Were friendly with our neighbors but not close enough to call them 'our friends', in other words, we don't really hang out or eat together or anything like that.
I will never tell my neighbors that I carry, I will never open carry on my property in case some 'anti's' happen to be passing through. We have a busy sidewalk that runs on one side of our house, so you never know who may be walking by and freak out that the guy mowing his lawn has a gun on his hip.
If I happened to come across a neighbor that is 'into guns', then maybe I wouldn't have a problem talking about our guns together. But you just gotta feel people out sometimes, ya know? Seems you have a blackmailing jerk for a neighbor and now that it's too late and he knows you have a gun, you can bet your @ss any other altercation that may arise between the two of you or your families, the gun WILL be brought up!
I reccomend keeping to yourself and say as little as possible to one another.
July 4th, 2011 06:28 PM
So how long do you think it will be before he files a order of protection against you? That would be the next logical step of harassment.
Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!
Stupidity should be painful.
July 4th, 2011 06:42 PM
Delete thread and get a lawyer. Start hitting back legally.
I know not what this "overkill" means.
Honing the knives, Cleaning the longguns, Stocking up ammo.
July 4th, 2011 06:43 PM
I would video tape my next outdoor excursions...if the neighbors came over I would invite him to leave and let him run his mouth all he wanted.
Had the past incident been on tape, along with his "I'll kick your arse.", he'd be back tracking with the police, not you!OMO
Outside of the video tape, I'd contact an attorney and ignore my neighbor...a taped conversation (if legal in your state) could be your friend.
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
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