Real Scenario: CStore - Robbery and Executions

This is a discussion on Real Scenario: CStore - Robbery and Executions within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't remember anyone posting this video. So this one is REALLY terrible. Video Here Two sidearm and shotgun wielding perps. Prone out customers and ...

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Thread: Real Scenario: CStore - Robbery and Executions

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array TVJ's Avatar
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    Real Scenario: CStore - Robbery and Executions

    I don't remember anyone posting this video.


    So this one is REALLY terrible.

    Video Here

    Two sidearm and shotgun wielding perps.

    Prone out customers and clerk

    Shotgun shoot and kill cashier, shotgun shoot and kill clerk prone, sidearm shot into one customer back/kidney, and out of bullets when B-guy sidearm went to customers head for final execution. Customer lives and gives interview in video.

    To me the only higher risk situation than this is if they just came in and executed immediately then took the money.

    How can I tell any robbery that starts like this (they all seem to....shotgun rare) wont devolve into execution? Plenty never do this. My answer: I have no way to tell. All seem to start the same. Gunshot is a big event/trend change during the robbery, seeing shotgun (or rifle) is very different as well.
    ________________________________________



    My Thoughts:

    Do the following in any robbery because I will never be able to tell which ones devolve into an execution. Take my chances and make peace with getting shot/gravely injured/killed for perp compliance failure.


    If I tactically choose to prone out, face the exit. Tuck my right leg under my torso. I lean my torso on it while my left leg is relatively outstreched. My left hand is forward by my face with fingers outstreched, my right hand is back by my hip and palm up. I turn my head in whatever direction allows me to see them in my peripheral vision. This is my comply position. I am athletic, semi-limber. I can see behind me from this position. With only a small amount of movement from this position, I can get into a sprinters crouch and GO - my right leg that is tucked becomes my pushoff leg as I get up in a sprinters "ready" position.

    I practiced this last night after watching the video. At two seconds, I was eight feet away from my prone spot and accelerating.

    Sprint out the door when I hear gunfire and/or can see guns down/offline to me and/or they are at register.

    Sprinting is better than staying put if/when perps distracted and/or hear gunfire.


    I carry appendix IWB and can quietly access when in Sprinter Prone or just prone. Helps to have left hand up by face to push self up and right hand down next to waist with fingers stretched out near carry. Compliant looking. Glock under body, fingers of right hand can slide under body and gently pull up shirt with fingers, access handle, body blocks most of this from view.

    If I choose to go to gun from prone, my focused intention is headshot of the closest perp. This may be a very close shot. Move from Sprinters Prone to sitting up and keep shooting at his head until he drops like lead. Target second perp. Keep going.

    In this case the shotgun perp appears to have his back to survivor as well as the other clerk who is about to get shot in the back. The other perp is behind the counter. Both concentrate on the register. Lowest risk point I see.

    Compliance - Run or Compliance - Ambush.

    DO IT FAST!! I counted out nine seconds from the shotgun blast to the clerk behind the counter that both perps were totally focused on the register. Shotgun perp back turned.

    I tested accessing from Sprinters Crouch prone with red gun. Moving hand into position, Draw, Head Index, and First Squeeze took roughly a second and a half to accurately index the head of a non-moving perp analogue (i need two partners to airsoft this). I noticed that I had to stay still from this sitting position to index accurately. Moving off the X from sitting moved my red gun all around. Tough to keep "metal on body meat", let alone the head.

    Sit Up and Keep Delivering.

    Today I train from prone in the backyard/garage and practice this and see what issues come up with vision, biomechanics of different locations to perp, turning from either side, etc.

    The lower risk moment to act -relatively speaking - in many of these robberies I watch is when they go for the money. They tunnel vision onto the money. Even when robbing patrons as well. When they orient on one patron, they ignore the last one. So far cash register focus, perps back to me, and/or hearing gunshot(s) are my action green lights.


    __________________


    This situation is the Fatal caveat to compliance, which many times works, keeps people alive and unharmed from the many videos I watch.

    I appreciate helpful ideas and constructive comments/critique on tactics/strategy/issues.

    (Note: CStore avoidance is excellent advice. I do this. Rarely, I choose to enter to nicer ones only in nice parts of town to quickly get drink/gum (I realize anytime, anywhere. Yet, I avoid paranoia.) This situation can occur at retail stores. Lastly, I understand the extremely rare probability this ever happens to me in my lifetime.)
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

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  3. #2
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    if 3 somebodies with a shotgun in evidence come together through a choke point--er, a door....they will be falling over each other
    and here there are but 2 of them. they walk past Weaver....bang, bang.
    it is the most practiced scenario for every new shooter--3 targets, each a COM dbl tap. takes from concealment about 1.5, certainly less than 2 seconds.

    i am not hesitating to find out if 'they' are gonna let us live or not.
    they create a situation from which past examples overwhelmingly result in the deaths of those in the store.

    my actions are predicated upon such numerous past events--not the chance that these may turn out to be 'gentleman' robbers
    oneshot and First Sgt like this.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I agree with Claude Clay. As I have said many times before, I will not leave my well being to the benevolence of armed criminals.

    I will be looking for an edge, one or both criminals with their attention/vision somewhere other than on me, then make my move.

    TVJ,
    If you try it FOF/airsoft, in the proximity as in the incident with two shooters, I believe that you will find that two seconds to rise and cover eight feet to flee won't cut it. You will be shot multiple times, at least that is my belief.
    oneshot likes this.
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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    I too have made the mental choice to not be compliant under any circumstances. I cannot read minds and intentions and I am not a gambling man especially when it comes to my life. If they have firearms and pose a threat, then I will assess and respond to that threat as necessary but compliance is the last option on that list of responses. I am not going to die on my knees begging for mercy if I can help it.

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    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    I've seen that scene on TV before. The customer is lucky to be alive.

    I have to agree with the other posters here, I'm not waiting to see if they get the money & leave. To the best of my abilities, they'd get an appropriate response.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

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    Senior Member Array DUNDEM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I too have made the mental choice to not be compliant under any circumstances. I cannot read minds and intentions and I am not a gambling man especially when it comes to my life. If they have firearms and pose a threat, then I will assess and respond to that threat as necessary but compliance is the last option on that list of responses. I am not going to die on my knees begging for mercy if I can help it.
    Agreed.


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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    If you're just going to run, make it an oblique angle. Running straight away you might take a shot in the back, but at an oblique angle they're going to have to adjust for your lateral movement and lead you a bit.

    It's hard to say what I'd do without being there, but if I thought they weren't going to notice my draw and movement I might try for a brain-ectomy on the shotgun-wielding BG as he is the greatest threat. If I know my shot hit, I'm calling that one good and moving on before the second has time to fully comprehend and react. BG #1 is going down, and even if it takes a minute I just scrambled his grey matter and I'm slightly less concerned about him now. BG #2 will take a couple shots to the noggin if I think I can make them, if not I'm going for the torso and hopefully I can move towards him in a spiraling motion so that I'm getting closer, but moving sideways at the same time. My goal is to catch that gun arm of his as it spins if possible and give it a good whack. Hopefully the job gets done.

    I am not a mall ninja, I just know that there is one person alone in that situation who truly has the power to turn the tide in favor of the good guys, and that person is the GG with a gun if there's one there. If I stay, I already know they shot one person for nothing, I can only assume they'll hoot others including me. If I leave, I consign the rest of the people to their deaths. I don't know that I could live with myself knowing I could have saved just one.

    Die or die not. There is no comply.
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    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    i made a fast answer--closer to home is that i never stand with my back to an entrance when waiting to pay.
    i would have seen them through the door as they were approaching and dropped them as the entered.
    that fast
    and yes, actually that simple

    what trips my action--

    they are flaunting in public large guns with out a care....
    very bad opening sign
    and as far as if i was standing there--it ended right there for them.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I too have made the mental choice to not be compliant under any circumstances. I cannot read minds and intentions and I am not a gambling man especially when it comes to my life. If they have firearms and pose a threat, then I will assess and respond to that threat as necessary but compliance is the last option on that list of responses. I am not going to die on my knees begging for mercy if I can help it.
    I agree...completely!
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    Senior Member Array TonyDTrigger's Avatar
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    This is a strong argument for carrying the most power you can conceal and control + lots and lots of practice. Trying to use a pocket gun in that scenario would probably get you killed even if you are able to shoot them 1st.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    TVJ,
    If you try it FOF/airsoft, in the proximity as in the incident with two shooters, I believe that you will find that two seconds to rise and cover eight feet to flee won't cut it. You will be shot multiple times, at least that is my belief.
    I agree... And who the hell wants to get shot in the back... Not me.

    The good thing is this. I can't say this with 100% certainty, but from my experience with street people, I would think that most armed robbers are not expecting to encounter an armed citizen shooting them! You do have an element of surprise on your side. How you choose to exploit it will be critical.

    Most robbers expect compliance. If they plan for any resistance, they plan for resistance coming from the store clerk. They expect the customers to be sheep and cower in the corner. Why? Because that's been their experience with every other robbery they've done before meeting me!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDTrigger View Post
    This is a strong argument for carrying the most power you can conceal and control + lots and lots of practice. Trying to use a pocket gun in that scenario would probably get you killed even if you are able to shoot them 1st.
    I'm just waiting for the deescalate,call 911, OC spray,HTH, replies.

    Bang bang, bang bang, earliest opurtunity.

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    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I too have made the mental choice to not be compliant under any circumstances. I cannot read minds and intentions and I am not a gambling man especially when it comes to my life. If they have firearms and pose a threat, then I will assess and respond to that threat as necessary but compliance is the last option on that list of responses. I am not going to die on my knees begging for mercy if I can help it.
    I agree with azchevy, for me getting on the floor is a no no, once there I am stuck. To old and fat to get up again, I therefore would fight before going down. It will be what it will be, today may be the day I die, but it will be with a fight. I have made the mentall choice before it ever comes NO GETTING ON THE FLOOR OR GOING TO THE BACK ROOM, without a fight.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by azchevy View Post
    I too have made the mental choice to not be compliant under any circumstances. I cannot read minds and intentions and I am not a gambling man especially when it comes to my life. If they have firearms and pose a threat, then I will assess and respond to that threat as necessary but compliance is the last option on that list of responses. I am not going to die on my knees begging for mercy if I can help it.
    Agree....Making the proper move and the right time is key...They are dumping adrenaline to, they will make mistakes and when they do. Well you know the rest of the story..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyDTrigger View Post
    This is a strong argument for carrying the most power you can conceal and control + lots and lots of practice. Trying to use a pocket gun in that scenario would probably get you killed even if you are able to shoot them 1st.
    In close quarters if I stick a 380 in your face, you will feel it... also, it doesnt matter if it is .380 or .44, good hits will throw the perp out of his ooda loop and a reliable .380 with proper loads will do some damage. I am accurate with mine and feel comfortable making hits up to 10 yards. .380 to a major organ is just as good as any other round. I also pocket carry a .357 magnum..... same premise. Close quarters to the face on the first guy... then on to the next guy. As many have said, cooper, suarez.... etc when it starts you need to be extremely violent until the threat is stopped. EXTREMELY VIOLENT.
    mlkx4 and 3G19eXo like this.

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