Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned - Page 2

Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

This is a discussion on Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is the armed man's dilemma. You never know how others will perceive things after the fact. In precisely that situation the OP was in, ...

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  1. #16
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    Array Hopyard's Avatar
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    This is the armed man's dilemma. You never know how others will perceive things after the fact.

    In precisely that situation the OP was in, one person might legitimately feel their life is in danger (and be able to verbalize the reason) and another person might laugh it off as a mostly harmless drunk doing stupid stuff.

    Here's the intricate issue, your size pretty much takes away disparity of force issues, and as the other guy wasn't in the game against you, it wasn't two on one. Yet, you certainly were in imminent danger of serious bodily harm if the sober guy hadn't stepped in. You can almost bet that if you shot the drunk, the buddy would deny that the drunk ever put a finger on you in the first place. This scenario is perilous both physically and legally.

    When I was 27 I had a huge crazy drunk rush me, grab me by my waist and press me up over his head. He was about to throw/slam me to the ground when his friend interfered. It was so unexpected and fast that I was in the air before I could react and even today don't know how I might have reacted without incurring significant major injuries just from the 8-foot drop.

    I think it is HG (maybe Sixto) who once posted here that nothing good happens after midnight.
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    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    Lemme put it this way, this was the Okemos Meijer :-)
    No kidding, WTH..You are right about the area. Very nice..Im on the East side of lansing. We are going to have to get together and do some shooting. Either total firearms, or going out to kelly road...Let me know..
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    This whole scenario brings up an important question I am wondering about.

    Sorry, I haven't been around drunk people before. Yes, I know, I have no life and never go to parties or any of that. Now I've read that alcohol can affect people in different ways. Some might be melancholy (perhaps like this guy) and others might become aggressive. I also have heard that with the harder drugs, the judgement is so impaired that when faced with the muzzle of a handgun pointed right at somebody, they may not be afraid at all. Would this happen with alcohol? Is there any chance that had you drawn your gun, would this big guy have even realized the danger is was in?

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    With any substance affecting the brain, you don't know how a particular individual will react. Some of them you don't know even without a substance.
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Drunks sometimes think they are invincible. So, yes the sight of a gun may just be fuel for their fire.
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    It actually sounds like you handled it pretty well to me. Other than you should work on keeping the SA elevated a little better. Other than that, I say you did well.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Drunk people are as varied as normal people, except that there IQ level gets halved. Some people can remain semi-aware, but most are totally different than their sober selves.

    The one time I got smashed (my best friends bachelor party) I didn't change much aside from not being able to talk or walk well. Apparently my Grandfather was the same way. People like me are the small minority as drunks from my experience. I was very impaired though. Even though I made the same choices I normally would, it took a long time to make the same decision.

    Most people get crazy. Whether that be talking a lot, angry looking for a fight, doing crazy stunts, or wanting to have sex it all depends on how alcohol affects them. Some people still have fear, most don't have enough common sense left to be afraid though. It's often because when they started drinking, they did it in safe places which seems to set the tone of their drunkennes.

    Dealing with drunks means you are dealing with no rules. Every drunk person is as unique as a snowflake, and you have to assess the situation as it happens. I think the OP just needs to keep their SA up a bit more, but did everything right.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Big drunk happy birthday boy wants to give you a hug.

    You shoot him?

    Good luck with that. Backing off, like you did, his friend pulling him aside, you got an excellent result here. Be glad it didn't get serious.
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  9. #24
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    If you decided to shoot, I would be fine with that. It's not my business how others defend themselves. However, shooting somebody is a tremendous legal hassle. I'm not saying I wouldn't have drawn if the situation escalated, but I see it more as a fist fight type scenario. The big guy was drunk and probably wasn't prepared to really throw down, and the little guy wasn't being aggressive.
    You ever fought a drunk? They don't seem so uncoordinated when the fists start flying. More like invincible. OC doesn't even always slow down a drunk.

    I think you did pretty good. I would've done the same, but I've started carrying a 1911 regularly, so no worries about a bigger caliber for me. I'd look into carrying something a little bigger. With the number of pocket sized 9mm's out there, I don't see any need to carry a .380 as a primary.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    The guy is drunk; he's not high on PCP. I guess he could have been on some of the harder stuff, and it may be worth considering in similar situations, but for the sake of argument, let's just say he got hammered on his birthday.

    Alcohol doesn't make anyone better at anything, and it doesn't mean he won't feel pain. I've been around thousands of drunk people, and it's not some big mystery. It decreases some inhibitions and sometimes people do things they wouldn't normally do. This may include talking trash and starting fights.

    Many people harp on the idea that CCW's should have a non lethal form of self defense, and I believe this situation warranted a less than lethal response. Like I previously stated, I wouldn't convict you if I was sitting on a jury, but if you had to shoot that guy, it would present a long string of legal and financial problems. I often hear "better to be judged by 12 than carried by six." I honestly don't agree with that statement. Spending 25 years in some hardcore state prison is not going to be a pleasant experience, and being dead might actually be better.

    Learning to box, or carrying OC or a collapsible baton would be a worthwhile investment. People do get killed in street fights, which is a good reason to avoid them, but it's rare. In borderline cases like this, I'd risk the chance of losing a fight over the chance of spending time in front of a judge and jury. But that's just me; it probably would have made my night to drop a big drunk idiot.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    I think it turned out fine, but it may have just been luck. OC may not have worked. A lucky punch can kill you dead. There was a thread on this not long ago. And how would a .380 do on a man that big and feeling less pain than normal?

    You were in a no-win situation. Glad it worked out.
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  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    SFury
    Dealing with drunks means you are dealing with no rules. Every drunk person is as unique as a snowflake, and you have to assess the situation as it happens. I think the OP just needs to keep their SA up a bit more, but did everything right.
    says it very well.

    you had SA though you sloughed it off. so we suggest paying attention to yourself a bit better. but i kinda said that already. the part SFury points out that i think bears deeper thought is that dealing with no rules and that every drunk person is unique and can change 3 times in 2 seconds.
    you can never dismiss them in public, or whenever in your vicinity.

    as for the gun.....once it comes out , the longer it stays out the less effective it becomes to make them leave you and the harder it is to put away. the drunk knows its a gun and he ain't been shot yet so its not gonna happen. and to put it away you would have to leave--which is what you would have done in the 1st place.

    not all answers come from the bbl of a gun.

    deescalating, removal of self from the location. losing face----who cares, i mean truelly...it mattes so little as to not be worthy of consideration.
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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    I'm just going to say it one more time - drunk people suck at fighting.

    So let me get this straight, a punch can kill you, but 4 or 5 rounds of .380 wouldn't affect a man? I don't get the logic.

    It's Saturday night, so I'm going to go hang out with some drunk people. I'll let you know how she was when I check back in tomorrow.

    Cheers

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post

    I also remember myself thinking "Man I wish I had the 45" as my hand hovered by the 380
    I think this speaks volumes and echoes what Clint Smith always says "carry the biggest gun you can".

    I for one wouldn't want to take on a 6'4" monster with a .380. My 1911 is a much better choice. Not to mention, I could use it as a non-lethal weapon in a pistol whipping sense.

    OP, glad you are ok and things didn't go any further.

  15. #30
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    Booyah....I'm not going to question your choice of gun/caliber....but let me ask you this...

    What did you think when the big guy started to advance and the thought of drawing on him....with him being 6', 300+ lbs and matched up with your Kel-Tec?
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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