Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

OP I have a suggestion...RUN! If you are a fit guy like you said in your OP then run away. Once you realized he was drunk why didn't you book. It's not like he had a weapon and you were worried about getting shot in the back.

It might seem stupid and cowardly but you could have just turned and ran away from him, you had a whole parking lot to run him til he puked.
Big fat guys run out of steam pretty fast. Also the running would create space and make it clear to an arresting officer what was taking place. I you ran and they chased then you really would have established "fear for your life".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cold Shot

I'm just going to say it one more time - drunk people suck at fighting.

---

I'm not going to assume that every drunk isn't going to be able to fight. I've seen a drunk beat the crap out of someone (who was sober, btw) and throw them in a dumpster. In that situation, the guy got what was coming to him, but that isn't always the case. Drunks are unpredictable, and they CAN fight. Every person and situation is different.

I think you handled this situation well. The beer after 2 A.M. thing is the same here in KY as well as it is in your neck of the woods. Its probably in place to keep drunks like your buddy here from getting more beer so he can go out and give even more people B-day hugs, whether they want it or not!

I think you did well with your SA and that bad feeling you got about not having a larger caliber handgun may be a lesson learned. I thinking carrying a .380 is better than nothing but at the same time I don't have a tremendous amount of confidence in it stopping a large 300 lb. man that is motivated to hurt you, unless you manage to take out the central nervous system.

I'm glad his buddy was there to help de-escalate this situation but like someone else said, I wouldn't be surprised if he sided with his buddy if things had turned ugly and the two of you found yourselves reiterating the whole account for Car 54.

I think the recommendations that you got about OC and or running are legitimate options to consider if you ever find yourself in another encounter where you may be in danger. It may not be the macho thing to do but if it saves you from having to shoot someone and saves you from a bunch of legal trouble then who cares?

Good job. I'm glad everything worked out well for everyone involved.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SIGguy229

Booyah....I'm not going to question your choice of gun/caliber....but let me ask you this...

What did you think when the big guy started to advance and the thought of drawing on him....with him being 6', 300+ lbs and matched up with your Kel-Tec?

---

Thoughts going through my head were
"On shot stop rate sucks, so shoot till he hits the ground or the gun starts going click"
"Why oh why did you pick TODAY to leave the spare mag at home"
"God I wish the 45 would conceal better under a t-shirt so I could have had it on me instead"


Other notes for this, as far as sober buddy claiming after the fact that he never laid a finger on me, this particular chain, is well known for running a ton of cameras in their parking lots, that also came into my head as it was happening. Its amazing the little things that run through your head.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by atctimmy

OP I have a suggestion...RUN! If you are a fit guy like you said in your OP then run away. Once you realized he was drunk why didn't you book. It's not like he had a weapon and you were worried about getting shot in the back.

It might seem stupid and cowardly but you could have just turned and ran away from him, you had a whole parking lot to run him til he puked.
Big fat guys run out of steam pretty fast. Also the running would create space and make it clear to an arresting officer what was taking place. I you ran and they chased then you really would have established "fear for your life".

---

You have a very good point, and honestly the thought never crossed my mind.

I will haveto think seriously about that in the future

It worked out well for you this time. Just work on your SA so you don't get surprised next time. Unfortunately, I know there are times when I worked late that I have been so tired that anything could have happened to me before I knew what wad going on. I took the original post as a warning to myself to keep my wits about me especially when it is late or I am really tired.

You know, this just made me remember.. We had a teenage boy killed in the parking lot of a Target store a few miles from here recently. They said it happened at 2:00am. He was an employee leaving work. Nobody ever figured out what happened or any sort of motive. Unfortunately, this kid wasn't old enough to have had a concealed handgun (at least legally, anyway). The OC spray is a concept I'm still struggling with. When I go out for a walk or a jog I've been carrying it in my hand. That way if somebody jumps me, I have an immediate response, which can be followed up with either Aikido moves or my gun as appropriate. But in a situation like this, when it is hard to tell if they guys are trying to do you harm, or are just weird, it'd be hard to know when/if to spray them. I know that in a lot of muggings, people will act and do strange things to confuse you before they make their move. That is what I would have been worried about in this situation. Are they just pretending to be drunk idiots in order to get me to let my guard down? At which point it makes it difficult to know what response to use. For example, if you spray the guy and he was planning to attack you, you may have just put a stop to that. But if he wasn't planning to do that and you spray him, his buddy may decided that was uncalled for and he may attack you instead. So you may actually make things worse.

This was definitely a situation without an easy solution, other than just running away like others have said. I'm rarely out at 2:00am, but one those times that I am I keep my situational awareness at its absolute highest state. Perhaps to a point some people might even call paranoia. But I think had it been me, given the time of night, I would have probably stayed back some distance when I saw people getting out of their cars and only approached when they were gone. Even during the day I try to keep my distance from everyone and other cars, but there are a lot more people around during the day, making it more difficult. At 2:00am, it shouldn't be that hard to just keep your distance until they have left the area you need to go to.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by booyah

I also remember myself thinking "Man I wish I had the 45" as my hand hovered by the 380

---

I remember thinking the exact same thing when the place I worked at got a shooting threat a few years back. It was when I realized that if there is even one time when you wish you had a bigger gun it means you should get and carry a bigger gun.

Overall I think you did very well (especially with checking your 6.. that's an easy thing to overlook).

You know what you did wrong.

Good job.

one lesson to learn from this, beer runs should be made before midnight

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by adric22

This whole scenario brings up an important question I am wondering about.

I also have heard that with the harder drugs, the judgement is so impaired that when faced with the muzzle of a handgun pointed right at somebody, they may not be afraid at all. Would this happen with alcohol? Is there any chance that had you drawn your gun, would this big guy have even realized the danger is was in?

---

I have seen people who were falling down, drunk and obnoxious, sober right the hell up when a gun was pointed at them.

But drunk, sober, straight or high, you can not count on that at all.

You can never, ever pull a gun on someone with the expectation it will make anyone back down. If it does, then that person was smart enough to save himself from being shot.

You pull that gun, you better be prepared to pull that trigger. Which means, you better be at the point where pulling the trigger is the expected response.

Things can change in a micro-second, and people do back down once the gun comes out.

But get the notion out of your mind right now that you can expect to pull a gun on someone believing you won't have to shoot them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spidey2011

I'm not going to assume that every drunk isn't going to be able to fight. I've seen a drunk beat the crap out of someone (who was sober, btw) and throw them in a dumpster. In that situation, the guy got what was coming to him, but that isn't always the case. Drunks are unpredictable, and they CAN fight. Every person and situation is different.

---

True that!

Overall, great job. Back peddling was smart. Guy that size could have stumbled and crushed you and even though not an intentional act on his part, could have done serious damage.

IRT SA, I think maybe you took for granted you were in a nice area, assuming you probably wouldn't run into a BG there. Lesson learned.

Your .380 dilemma. I never want to have to ask myself the question, "why didn't I...?". Be prepared. Not all attackers are 150lb meth addicts. Sug Knight could be your attacker and a small caliber may have a hard time finding anything vital.

You went home unharmed, that says alot.

The best learning expierences are those you actually have and survive.

I am a strong believer in having less than lethal options.

I carry the ASP Street Defender which is on my person at all times because it has my house and car keys attached.

Easy to deploy and it allows me to disengage, gain distance and escalate force if need be.

Attachment 51915
click image to enlarge....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by booyah

Thoughts going through my head were
"On shot stop rate sucks, so shoot till he hits the ground or the gun starts going click"
"Why oh why did you pick TODAY to leave the spare mag at home"
"God I wish the 45 would conceal better under a t-shirt so I could have had it on me instead"


Other notes for this, as far as sober buddy claiming after the fact that he never laid a finger on me, this particular chain, is well known for running a ton of cameras in their parking lots, that also came into my head as it was happening. Its amazing the little things that run through your head.

---

It is highly unlikely, however, that the surveillance camera would contain audio and this is where the drunk's buddy would throw you under the bus. He could say that you had said something that either started the whole thing or escalated it. Cameras don't tell the whole story. Cameras, for example, caught Patty LaBell'es entourage beating up a West Point Cadet and the whole thing is being justified b/c they are saying the cadet had verbally assaulted and threatened said parties involved.

Some actions, however, speak louder than words. Even if the drunk and his buddy's lawyer tried to argue that you were some cowboy dying to shoot someone, it would be hard to argue when the camera is showing you running away or using OC, etc.

Glad everything worked out but don't put too much confidence in surveillance cameras coming to your aid in court.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spidey2011

I'm not going to assume that every drunk isn't going to be able to fight. I've seen a drunk beat the crap out of someone (who was sober, btw) and throw them in a dumpster. In that situation, the guy got what was coming to him, but that isn't always the case. Drunks are unpredictable, and they CAN fight. Every person and situation is different.

---

This is a pretty weak rebuttal.

-Most people suck at fighting.

-Being drunk will affect decision making, coordination, and reaction time. 9 out of 10 times, that person who all ready sucked at fighting will suck even more when inebriated.

-Many factors will determine the outcome of a violent altercation. The most important is the mindset of the parties involved. Most fights in the adult world are really just an assault, and if someone walks up and punches somebody in the face and keeps punching him, then the aggressor will most likely win the altercation. This is why situational awareness is so important.

-Obviously drunk guys have won fights against sober people. There are dozens of ways in which a person can gain an advantage in an altercation, and the drunk guy that you saw could have been a better fighter, been more aggressive, been angrier, or have gotten the jump on the other guy.

-The main point is that some drunk guy who doesn't know what he's doing lumbering towards me trying to mouth off or push me around when I'm prepared to do anything to win is going to get hurt. It's like shooting static targets at 7 yards; the 10 ring is going to be one big hole.