Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

This is a discussion on Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Cold Shot This is a pretty weak rebuttal. -Most people suck at fighting. -Being drunk will affect decision making, coordination, and reaction ...

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  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    This is a pretty weak rebuttal.

    -Most people suck at fighting.

    -Being drunk will affect decision making, coordination, and reaction time. 9 out of 10 times, that person who all ready sucked at fighting will suck even more when inebriated.

    -Many factors will determine the outcome of a violent altercation. The most important is the mindset of the parties involved. Most fights in the adult world are really just an assault, and if someone walks up and punches somebody in the face and keeps punching him, then the aggressor will most likely win the altercation. This is why situational awareness is so important.

    -Obviously drunk guys have won fights against sober people. There are dozens of ways in which a person can gain an advantage in an altercation, and the drunk guy that you saw could have been a better fighter, been more aggressive, been angrier, or have gotten the jump on the other guy.

    -The main point is that some drunk guy who doesn't know what he's doing lumbering towards me trying to mouth off or push me around when I'm prepared to do anything to win is going to get hurt. It's like shooting static targets at 7 yards; the 10 ring is going to be one big hole.
    Altercations are full of a whole host of unknown variables. Even the most skilled fighters can't tell you with 100% assurance that they will come out the victor. The boxing world, for example, is full of upsets even with well seasoned and skilled pros. Its good to have a plan but even the best plan will change according to ever-changing contingencies. Never go into an altercation believing you know what will happen and be filled with false assurance. Training and a willingness to adapt will put odds in your favor but at the end of the day, we're still taking about "odds".

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    The OP refers to a fat kid, sloppy drunk and celebrating his 21st birthday. I have actually had some success in dealing with this type sans injury, bruises, or hard feelings by use of verbal maneuvers that redirect his thought process and physical maneuvers that get me out of harms way. It's not too hard to out think a drunk kid. In the event all else fails a burst from Old School's ASP Street Defender would most likely take his mind off making mischief. Anything can happen of course but I wouldn't expect a kid, drunk on his first legal booze to be worthy of a shooting response.

  4. #48
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    This is a pretty weak rebuttal

    -The main point is that some drunk guy who doesn't know what he's doing lumbering towards me trying to mouth off or push me around when I'm prepared to do anything to win is going to get hurt. It's like shooting static targets at 7 yards; the 10 ring is going to be one big hole.
    When you go to court make sure you change "hurt" to "killed". Putting big holes in some drunk because he pushed you down or slapped you isn't going to fly unless you can verbalize how you felt your life was in danger and lethal force was your last and only option.
    To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
    Ronald Reagan

  5. #49
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    I'm just going to say it one more time - drunk people suck at fighting.

    So let me get this straight, a punch can kill you, but 4 or 5 rounds of .380 wouldn't affect a man? I don't get the logic.

    It's Saturday night, so I'm going to go hang out with some drunk people. I'll let you know how she was when I check back in tomorrow.

    Cheers
    Not all of them suck at fighting. I had one guy who blew a .24, took me and two Johnson County deputies to get this guy under control and the other deputies were my size against the little guy who was drunk and angry
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    While I agree that there may be those with altered brain chemistry that cannot fight worth crap, there are those who can quite ably do so. An important distinction that I think needs to be kept in mind is that it usually takes more people to control someone than to take them out. The former being a control or arrest situation and the latter being a fight situation. Likewise, the former attempts its goal with minimal injury to the subject, while the latter attempts its goal with small consideration for injury to the subject. There is a considerable difference between the two.
    Old School, Spidey2011 and 9MMare like this.
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  7. #51
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    While I agree that there may be those with altered brain chemistry that cannot fight worth crap, there are those who can quite ably do so. An important distinction that I think needs to be kept in mind is that it usually takes more people to control someone than to take them out. The former being a control or arrest situation and the latter being a fight situation. Likewise, the former attempts its goal with minimal injury to the subject, while the latter attempts its goal with small consideration for injury to the subject. There is a considerable difference between the two.
    + 1.........And this is a truism you can take to the bank and cash.

    On a similar note in an arrest situation:

    As a young rookie, myself and two other officers were trying to get a large drunk under control with out causing him physical injury with little success.

    A well seasoned officer arrived and yelled for us to back off.

    He then made one baton strike to the drunks thigh and got immediate and complete complience for handcuffing.

    Pain is a great teacher.
    64zebra likes this.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Agreed.
    I came to learn that, beyond pure numbers, there is a simple rule to control of one who does not wish to be controlled. They must be brought to a point where they prefer being controlled to the alternative.
    Bark'n, SFury and 64zebra like this.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #53
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    That is the great truth with a conflict. Drunks can do surprising things at times. We need to make them stop in the most effective manner we have available. This doesn't necessarilly mean shooting them, but it might mean that. I'm not risking permanent injury just because a drunk might stop. I want to make them stop if I have to.

    Don't ever forget, that if you don't know the drunk, you don't know what they are capable of. Make the choice that gets you home in the best shape you can, and you have made the correct choice. People seem to forget that there are consequences for our actions. Sometimes fatal. As a nation, we need to be reminded that.

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I cannot judge your action. When you are in the heat, things are different

    My thoughts from similar situations are this; For me at 170lbs, and 5ft 9 inches, even a 300lb unarmed man is not a lethal force encounter; yet. But the changing dynamics of the situation may change that.

    It is true that drunk people feel less pain than sober people to a point. However like Old School pointed out here, the right pain can get their attention. And then like Guantes suggested, they comply.

    One thing that I have found in my brawling days that will always work is taking their air temporarily. A light knife edge to the trachea will temporarily collaspe it making breathing impossible for a few minutes. This gets their attention. It is legal for me to do under the color of authority, but a citizen can get away with it.

    Another great "stopper" is a kick to the Common Peronial Nerve, located on the side of the leg, about 6 inches above the knee cap. you can strike it with your shin and if hit very hard will bring them to the ground. Your shins are like axe handles, and you have 2 with you every day. Anyone who doubts the excruciating pain this will cause can have their significant other try it out on them, just dont hit the knee cap!

    If these do not work, then you better shoot! However, Its easier to get away from a bad day in court with these methods.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  11. #55
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    When you go to court make sure you change "hurt" to "killed". Putting big holes in some drunk because he pushed you down or slapped you isn't going to fly unless you can verbalize how you felt your life was in danger and lethal force was your last and only option.
    It was a simile. If you read my other posts, I stated that I viewed the OP's scenario as a less than lethal situation. The point is - If someone is walking towards someone else with his arms at his sides, mouthing off and trying to act tough, and that other guy is prepared to engage him and has been training to do so for the better part of the decade, then the aggressor is most likely going to get beat down.

    It is analogous to someone who has been shooting professionally for years hitting a static at 7 yards. Neither are very hard to do.

  12. #56
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    Altercations are full of a whole host of unknown variables. Even the most skilled fighters can't tell you with 100% assurance that they will come out the victor. The boxing world, for example, is full of upsets even with well seasoned and skilled pros. Its good to have a plan but even the best plan will change according to ever-changing contingencies. Never go into an altercation believing you know what will happen and be filled with false assurance. Training and a willingness to adapt will put odds in your favor but at the end of the day, we're still taking about "odds".
    I agree. Things can go wrong in fights. Listen to this... I've lost a few fights. If you read my previous posts, which are entirely based on the specific set of circumstances set forth by the OP, I explained that I view the chance of losing the fight and maybe getting banged up a little bit as less risky than shooting an unarmed man and having to explain that to a jury while his buddy is sitting there testifying on his buddy's behalf.

    I still like my chances in a fight against most people, however.

  13. #57
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Not all of them suck at fighting. I had one guy who blew a .24, took me and two Johnson County deputies to get this guy under control and the other deputies were my size against the little guy who was drunk and angry
    I'm sure you have certain rules you have to follow while getting someone under control. Your situation is irrelevant. I'm talking about really hurting people, not detaining them. I view fights as mortal combat, because anything can happen, and I'm prepared to act extremely violently to make sure I win.

    However, the situations I'm talking about would be severe enough for many of the people here to use a firearm, but I really don't want to have to shoot somebody and deal with the legal ramifications.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    I agree. Things can go wrong in fights. Listen to this... I've lost a few fights. If you read my previous posts, which are entirely based on the specific set of circumstances set forth by the OP, I explained that I view the chance of losing the fight and maybe getting banged up a little bit as less risky than shooting an unarmed man and having to explain that to a jury while his buddy is sitting there testifying on his buddy's behalf.

    I still like my chances in a fight against most people, however.
    I've said before, a couple of days with ice packs and Advil is a hell of a lot cheaper than spending $100,000 plus on a murder trial.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #59
    Member Array booyah's Avatar
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    Cold shot,

    Unlike you I dont beleive in the concept of a "friendly fist fight"

    A fight is a fight, and the only one who says if its a fight to the death is the guy who's winning.
    Sorta the same thing as bringing a knife to a gun fight, at what point do you know its a gun fight? At the point the other guy pulls the gun.

    As far as H2H I do have a fair amount of training, I had a brown belt in taekwondo before I dropped out of the program, so while I'm rusty I do know how to handle myself.

    I would love to have the option of an ASP, but currently my state laws dictate that an expanding baton is a "Concealed Weapon" and not covered under my "Concealed Pistol License" so I'd rather not start out with a fairly nasty misdemeanor charge.

    Running is something I hadnt thought of, and will have to take to heart though.

  16. #60
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I've said before, a couple of days with ice packs and Advil is a hell of a lot cheaper than spending $100,000 plus on a murder trial.
    You are making an assumption that the drunk will stop once you are down, or that you can stop them.

    My former bosses son made a dumb mistake and got involved in a bar fight. He wasn't drunk that night, but put himself into a bad situation. I don't know the exact details, mostly because the events leading to the fight and the fight itself were lost to amnesia, but apparently he said something to a drunk who hit some woman. The drunk attacked him because of it.

    That drunk beat him after he was down. He suffered multiple broken ribs and a broken jaw. All incurred after he was knocked down, and was unable to fight back. Someone called 911 as soon as the fight began, but it did not do him any good. The guy fled shortly before the cops arrived. Sure, the guy was caught a few days later and was convicted for the assault. Now I pay for his meals, and the person he attacked will have lingering issues from the fight until he dies. Hell, he was lucky he survived at all.

    He needed far more than ice packs and advil to recover. Never assume anything. Each situation must be assessed and dealt with accordingly.

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