This is a discussion on Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Cold Shot This is a pretty weak rebuttal. -Most people suck at fighting. -Being drunk will affect decision making, coordination, and reaction ...
The OP refers to a fat kid, sloppy drunk and celebrating his 21st birthday. I have actually had some success in dealing with this type sans injury, bruises, or hard feelings by use of verbal maneuvers that redirect his thought process and physical maneuvers that get me out of harms way. It's not too hard to out think a drunk kid. In the event all else fails a burst from Old School's ASP Street Defender would most likely take his mind off making mischief. Anything can happen of course but I wouldn't expect a kid, drunk on his first legal booze to be worthy of a shooting response.
To sit back hoping that someday, some way, someone will make things right is to go on feeding the crocodile, hoping he will eat you last - but eat you he will.
"The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."
While I agree that there may be those with altered brain chemistry that cannot fight worth crap, there are those who can quite ably do so. An important distinction that I think needs to be kept in mind is that it usually takes more people to control someone than to take them out. The former being a control or arrest situation and the latter being a fight situation. Likewise, the former attempts its goal with minimal injury to the subject, while the latter attempts its goal with small consideration for injury to the subject. There is a considerable difference between the two.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
On a similar note in an arrest situation:
As a young rookie, myself and two other officers were trying to get a large drunk under control with out causing him physical injury with little success.
A well seasoned officer arrived and yelled for us to back off.
He then made one baton strike to the drunks thigh and got immediate and complete complience for handcuffing.
Pain is a great teacher.
"Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".
"A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".
I came to learn that, beyond pure numbers, there is a simple rule to control of one who does not wish to be controlled. They must be brought to a point where they prefer being controlled to the alternative.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
That is the great truth with a conflict. Drunks can do surprising things at times. We need to make them stop in the most effective manner we have available. This doesn't necessarilly mean shooting them, but it might mean that. I'm not risking permanent injury just because a drunk might stop. I want to make them stop if I have to.
Don't ever forget, that if you don't know the drunk, you don't know what they are capable of. Make the choice that gets you home in the best shape you can, and you have made the correct choice. People seem to forget that there are consequences for our actions. Sometimes fatal. As a nation, we need to be reminded that.
I cannot judge your action. When you are in the heat, things are different
My thoughts from similar situations are this; For me at 170lbs, and 5ft 9 inches, even a 300lb unarmed man is not a lethal force encounter; yet. But the changing dynamics of the situation may change that.
It is true that drunk people feel less pain than sober people to a point. However like Old School pointed out here, the right pain can get their attention. And then like Guantes suggested, they comply.
One thing that I have found in my brawling days that will always work is taking their air temporarily. A light knife edge to the trachea will temporarily collaspe it making breathing impossible for a few minutes. This gets their attention. It is legal for me to do under the color of authority, but a citizen can get away with it.
Another great "stopper" is a kick to the Common Peronial Nerve, located on the side of the leg, about 6 inches above the knee cap. you can strike it with your shin and if hit very hard will bring them to the ground. Your shins are like axe handles, and you have 2 with you every day. Anyone who doubts the excruciating pain this will cause can have their significant other try it out on them, just dont hit the knee cap!
If these do not work, then you better shoot! However, Its easier to get away from a bad day in court with these methods.
Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.
It is analogous to someone who has been shooting professionally for years hitting a static at 7 yards. Neither are very hard to do.
I still like my chances in a fight against most people, however.
However, the situations I'm talking about would be severe enough for many of the people here to use a firearm, but I really don't want to have to shoot somebody and deal with the legal ramifications.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
Unlike you I dont beleive in the concept of a "friendly fist fight"
A fight is a fight, and the only one who says if its a fight to the death is the guy who's winning.
Sorta the same thing as bringing a knife to a gun fight, at what point do you know its a gun fight? At the point the other guy pulls the gun.
As far as H2H I do have a fair amount of training, I had a brown belt in taekwondo before I dropped out of the program, so while I'm rusty I do know how to handle myself.
I would love to have the option of an ASP, but currently my state laws dictate that an expanding baton is a "Concealed Weapon" and not covered under my "Concealed Pistol License" so I'd rather not start out with a fairly nasty misdemeanor charge.
Running is something I hadnt thought of, and will have to take to heart though.
My former bosses son made a dumb mistake and got involved in a bar fight. He wasn't drunk that night, but put himself into a bad situation. I don't know the exact details, mostly because the events leading to the fight and the fight itself were lost to amnesia, but apparently he said something to a drunk who hit some woman. The drunk attacked him because of it.
That drunk beat him after he was down. He suffered multiple broken ribs and a broken jaw. All incurred after he was knocked down, and was unable to fight back. Someone called 911 as soon as the fight began, but it did not do him any good. The guy fled shortly before the cops arrived. Sure, the guy was caught a few days later and was convicted for the assault. Now I pay for his meals, and the person he attacked will have lingering issues from the fight until he dies. Hell, he was lucky he survived at all.
He needed far more than ice packs and advil to recover. Never assume anything. Each situation must be assessed and dealt with accordingly.