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Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

11K views 102 replies 42 participants last post by  SIXTO 
#1 ·
So I worked late last night, and got out around 2:30AM.

It had been a long day/night so I decided to stop by the 24 hour grocery store in the area to grab a 6 pack of beer to drink once I got home.

This grocery store is in a wealthy suburb, a really "boring nice area" where nothing ever happens. Of course....

At the grocery store, I found out that the state doesnt allow sales of alcohol between 2AM and 7AM to my minor annoyance and headed back out to my car.

I wasnt parked anywhere odd, near the door under a light. As I walked to my car another car pulled up next to it in the next logical spot and thee people got out, one lady who proceeded into the store, and two men, one skinny, about 5'8" and another probably 6'4" and 300lb+. Now I'm not a small guy, I'm 6' about 230 and very broad across the shoulders. I ride my bike, hike and run for exercise so I'm what I would consider pretty fit. I could stand to lose about 10lbs, but not much more than that. The big guy was big enough that he made me feel tiny, so thats saying something.

I kept walking not thinking too much of it, until I got right by my car and the big guy made what looked like a move to hug my middle.
I straight armed him at the shoulders to stop him and slipped around him putting his friend on the other side of him from me.

I backed up about 4 or 5 steps and held both hands flat out out saying "Woah there, whats that all about"

The small guy started talking fast about how his buddy was drunk, and acting like an a$$, how its his 21st birthday and they were taking him home.
The big guy got his balance back (at this point it made sense that he was drunk as a skunk) and started to advance on me getting obviously agitated saying "Hey, why did you shove me!?!"

I backed up a few more steps turning sideways and checking my 6 (it was clear, the three of us where the only ones within 50 yards). I placed my left hand out infront of myself and braced my footing. My right hand I put behind my body and just outside my rear pocket where my Kel-Tec 380 was. I faced both of them and in a calm loud voice stated "I don't want to have any trouble here with us"

At this point the skinny guy stepped infront of his friend and started pushing him back saying "You dont want this, your drunk and acting like an a$$, leave this guy alone, we're just going in the store, leave this guy alone" etc etc etc.

Overall it didnt get bad, but it certainly had the potential, the things I learned from this were primarily
1. Carry all the time (already known, but certainly driven home)
2. Keep the SA up, I didnt realize the big guy was drunk, until after he lunged at me. I reacted quickly to that, or it could have gone down him right there.
3. Keep your distance, I never should have let the guys get within a range where the big guy could come at me in the first place, but I didnt want to be too obvious that I was watching them and wanted to avoid them as I walked through the lot.
4. If its after 2AM dont bother trying to get beer as in Michigan they can't sell it to you anyways.

Any other lessons I should take away from this? How would you have handled it?

I also remember myself thinking "Man I wish I had the 45" as my hand hovered by the 380
 
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#3 ·
I was full stage orange. I had already drawn the lines in my mind. He had two steps till I drew, and one more till I started firing. I was probably 6 large paces from him.

I do have a double stack 45 as well, but the P3AT is awfully handy to carry hence I had it on me. I love the 45 but it doesnt conceal as well as I would like even with the supertuck I have for it. The 380 rides in a Don Hume 002 wallet style holster and just vanishes in my pocket looking like a normal wallet from the outside.
 
#6 ·
learning is an ongoing process. after being caught short the rest of the event went well as the little guy got the proper 'feel' for your intolerance level.

as for not wanting to 'stare at'....being obvious. that is rather exactly what i do on the streets. you make brief eye contact at 20ish feet--enough to say ' i see you, we recognize that we are both here.' a slight nod of your head breaks contact. if they move in on you after that , than it is for a reason--you will have to find that out.

2 things about how BG's perceive someone who does not break eye contact--1-they think you are another BG or 2- you are a cop.
either way, honestly, works for me.
 
#7 ·
You did well. I agree with Guantes about the weapon choice, but a Gun on you is better than one left a home...Im glad it worked out.

BTW what part of MI are you in?
 
#9 ·
Guantes, for sure eye contact is an art type unto itself. different 'types' of peoples, too much or too little may cause various comebacks.

from the gate, if i get a 'yo, man ..whatca lookin at.....' i answerer as in ---"your looking at me looking at you like you know me. i don't think i know you. ua know like....have we met?"
if they push past this, than there was nothing that you did--they were out for someone and it happens now to be you.

so, don't go to stupid places and especially, cause sometimes a detoured may occur--don't leave home without em.
ain't just Karl who may get upset.
 
#11 ·
i lower my chin but not my eyes
---------------

i offer up respect as an equal....i care not how you are dressed.

a simple fact of life often overlooked is that--no matter how they are perceived by our eyes, to themselves: they are important.

take that from someone at your own risk.

----> the mouse may think its an elephant on its mothers side. RAH
 
#17 ·
No kidding, WTH..You are right about the area. Very nice..Im on the East side of lansing. We are going to have to get together and do some shooting. Either total firearms, or going out to kelly road...Let me know..
 
#13 ·
I do not like people putting their hands on me...old men are not very friendly like that...:nono:
I would probably have stayed away from someone too close to my car door. Two guys in front of me, and one of them grabbing for me would probably have had the big guy tasting some OC spray. It would have already been in my hand.
Any other movements by either would probably have made me back up and go into the store...call 911 and wait. I'm not looking for trouble, nor will I tolerate aggressive behavior...either I 'exit' the area, if possible, or 'exit' the individual.
 
#14 ·
If you decided to shoot, I would be fine with that. It's not my business how others defend themselves. However, shooting somebody is a tremendous legal hassle. I'm not saying I wouldn't have drawn if the situation escalated, but I see it more as a fist fight type scenario. The big guy was drunk and probably wasn't prepared to really throw down, and the little guy wasn't being aggressive.

So if the big guy starts walking towards you talking smack I would have been prepared to throw combo's, drop the big guy, and assess the little guy's reaction. It doesn't really matter how big you are; if someone is landing hard punches, then you're in trouble.

I would never consider carrying OC because it seems like a hassle, but that's just my opinion. Learn to box.
 
#24 ·
If you decided to shoot, I would be fine with that. It's not my business how others defend themselves. However, shooting somebody is a tremendous legal hassle. I'm not saying I wouldn't have drawn if the situation escalated, but I see it more as a fist fight type scenario. The big guy was drunk and probably wasn't prepared to really throw down, and the little guy wasn't being aggressive.
You ever fought a drunk? They don't seem so uncoordinated when the fists start flying. More like invincible. OC doesn't even always slow down a drunk.

I think you did pretty good. I would've done the same, but I've started carrying a 1911 regularly, so no worries about a bigger caliber for me.:tongue: I'd look into carrying something a little bigger. With the number of pocket sized 9mm's out there, I don't see any need to carry a .380 as a primary.
 
#15 ·
Disparity of force to me said a shoot scenario could be called for.

I'm not a fan of trading punches with a drunk as they are less likely to feel them. True a hit to the ear canal would probably have dropped him hard, he could have come back up angry as a wounded bear.

My thought at that point was draw and hold semi low ready. If he continued forward its a shoot scenario. Like I said in my mind the lines were drawn. No time for hesitation at 6 paces
 
#16 ·
This is the armed man's dilemma. You never know how others will perceive things after the fact.

In precisely that situation the OP was in, one person might legitimately feel their life is in danger (and be able to verbalize the reason) and another person might laugh it off as a mostly harmless drunk doing stupid stuff.

Here's the intricate issue, your size pretty much takes away disparity of force issues, and as the other guy wasn't in the game against you, it wasn't two on one. Yet, you certainly were in imminent danger of serious bodily harm if the sober guy hadn't stepped in. You can almost bet that if you shot the drunk, the buddy would deny that the drunk ever put a finger on you in the first place. This scenario is perilous both physically and legally.

When I was 27 I had a huge crazy drunk rush me, grab me by my waist and press me up over his head. He was about to throw/slam me to the ground when his friend interfered. It was so unexpected and fast that I was in the air before I could react and even today don't know how I might have reacted without incurring significant major injuries just from the 8-foot drop.

I think it is HG (maybe Sixto) who once posted here that nothing good happens after midnight.
 
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#18 ·
This whole scenario brings up an important question I am wondering about.

Sorry, I haven't been around drunk people before. Yes, I know, I have no life and never go to parties or any of that. Now I've read that alcohol can affect people in different ways. Some might be melancholy (perhaps like this guy) and others might become aggressive. I also have heard that with the harder drugs, the judgement is so impaired that when faced with the muzzle of a handgun pointed right at somebody, they may not be afraid at all. Would this happen with alcohol? Is there any chance that had you drawn your gun, would this big guy have even realized the danger is was in?
 
#40 ·
This whole scenario brings up an important question I am wondering about.

I also have heard that with the harder drugs, the judgement is so impaired that when faced with the muzzle of a handgun pointed right at somebody, they may not be afraid at all. Would this happen with alcohol? Is there any chance that had you drawn your gun, would this big guy have even realized the danger is was in?
I have seen people who were falling down, drunk and obnoxious, sober right the hell up when a gun was pointed at them.

But drunk, sober, straight or high, you can not count on that at all.

You can never, ever pull a gun on someone with the expectation it will make anyone back down. If it does, then that person was smart enough to save himself from being shot.

You pull that gun, you better be prepared to pull that trigger. Which means, you better be at the point where pulling the trigger is the expected response.

Things can change in a micro-second, and people do back down once the gun comes out.

But get the notion out of your mind right now that you can expect to pull a gun on someone believing you won't have to shoot them.
 
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#20 ·
Drunks sometimes think they are invincible. So, yes the sight of a gun may just be fuel for their fire.
 
#22 ·
Drunk people are as varied as normal people, except that there IQ level gets halved. Some people can remain semi-aware, but most are totally different than their sober selves.

The one time I got smashed (my best friends bachelor party) I didn't change much aside from not being able to talk or walk well. Apparently my Grandfather was the same way. People like me are the small minority as drunks from my experience. I was very impaired though. Even though I made the same choices I normally would, it took a long time to make the same decision.

Most people get crazy. Whether that be talking a lot, angry looking for a fight, doing crazy stunts, or wanting to have sex it all depends on how alcohol affects them. Some people still have fear, most don't have enough common sense left to be afraid though. It's often because when they started drinking, they did it in safe places which seems to set the tone of their drunkennes.

Dealing with drunks means you are dealing with no rules. Every drunk person is as unique as a snowflake, and you have to assess the situation as it happens. I think the OP just needs to keep their SA up a bit more, but did everything right.
 
#25 ·
The guy is drunk; he's not high on PCP. I guess he could have been on some of the harder stuff, and it may be worth considering in similar situations, but for the sake of argument, let's just say he got hammered on his birthday.

Alcohol doesn't make anyone better at anything, and it doesn't mean he won't feel pain. I've been around thousands of drunk people, and it's not some big mystery. It decreases some inhibitions and sometimes people do things they wouldn't normally do. This may include talking trash and starting fights.

Many people harp on the idea that CCW's should have a non lethal form of self defense, and I believe this situation warranted a less than lethal response. Like I previously stated, I wouldn't convict you if I was sitting on a jury, but if you had to shoot that guy, it would present a long string of legal and financial problems. I often hear "better to be judged by 12 than carried by six." I honestly don't agree with that statement. Spending 25 years in some hardcore state prison is not going to be a pleasant experience, and being dead might actually be better.

Learning to box, or carrying OC or a collapsible baton would be a worthwhile investment. People do get killed in street fights, which is a good reason to avoid them, but it's rare. In borderline cases like this, I'd risk the chance of losing a fight over the chance of spending time in front of a judge and jury. But that's just me; it probably would have made my night to drop a big drunk idiot.
 
#26 ·
I think it turned out fine, but it may have just been luck. OC may not have worked. A lucky punch can kill you dead. There was a thread on this not long ago. And how would a .380 do on a man that big and feeling less pain than normal?

You were in a no-win situation. Glad it worked out.
 
#27 ·
SFury
Dealing with drunks means you are dealing with no rules. Every drunk person is as unique as a snowflake, and you have to assess the situation as it happens. I think the OP just needs to keep their SA up a bit more, but did everything right.
says it very well.

you had SA though you sloughed it off. so we suggest paying attention to yourself a bit better. but i kinda said that already. the part SFury points out that i think bears deeper thought is that dealing with no rules and that every drunk person is unique and can change 3 times in 2 seconds.
you can never dismiss them in public, or whenever in your vicinity.

as for the gun.....once it comes out , the longer it stays out the less effective it becomes to make them leave you and the harder it is to put away. the drunk knows its a gun and he ain't been shot yet so its not gonna happen. and to put it away you would have to leave--which is what you would have done in the 1st place.

not all answers come from the bbl of a gun.

deescalating, removal of self from the location. losing face----who cares, i mean truelly...it mattes so little as to not be worthy of consideration.
 
#28 ·
I'm just going to say it one more time - drunk people suck at fighting.

So let me get this straight, a punch can kill you, but 4 or 5 rounds of .380 wouldn't affect a man? I don't get the logic.

It's Saturday night, so I'm going to go hang out with some drunk people. I'll let you know how she was when I check back in tomorrow.

Cheers
 
#32 ·
I'm just going to say it one more time - drunk people suck at fighting.
I'm not going to assume that every drunk isn't going to be able to fight. I've seen a drunk beat the crap out of someone (who was sober, btw) and throw them in a dumpster. In that situation, the guy got what was coming to him, but that isn't always the case. Drunks are unpredictable, and they CAN fight. Every person and situation is different.
 
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