Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

This is a discussion on Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Those of you who advocate getting into a fist fight as a CCW carrier need to remember that any fight you get into involves a ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array 10thmtn's Avatar
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    Those of you who advocate getting into a fist fight as a CCW carrier need to remember that any fight you get into involves a gun - yours. Do you really want to risk having your gun taken from you after you get beat down?

    I'm not getting into a fist fight. I'm not putting myself into a situation where my gun can be used against me. Disengage, de-escalate, avoid - yes. Fist fight, grappling - no way.

    But the real lesson learned here is - you don't need beer (or anything else) after midnight.

    Glad it turned out ok.

    By the way - put a laser on that gun, use FMJ for penetration, practice putting the bullets where they count, and stop worrying about caliber. Caliber does not make up poor bullet placement - and with proper placement, caliber does not matter much.
    wmhawth, 9MMare, TedBeau and 1 others like this.
    The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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  3. #62
    Senior Member Array Ragin Cajun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    I also remember myself thinking "Man I wish I had the 45" as my hand hovered by the 380
    That's usually the case when someone needs their gun. Glad you didn't need yours in that night.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    ....I got right by my car and the big guy made what looked like a move to hug my middle.
    I straight armed him at the shoulders to stop him and slipped around him putting his friend on the other side of him from me.

    I backed up about 4 or 5 steps and held both hands flat out out saying "Woah there, whats that all about" ....The big guy got his balance back (at this point it made sense that he was drunk as a skunk) and started to advance on me getting obviously agitated saying "Hey, why did you shove me!?!"

    I backed up a few more steps turning sideways and checking my 6 (it was clear, the three of us where the only ones within 50 yards).
    Excellent response, but I guess Laurel and Hardy aren't the fun ones to get close to at 2AM (more below).

    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    I placed my left hand out infront of myself and braced my footing. My right hand I put behind my body and just outside my rear pocket where my Kel-Tec 380 was.
    You failed to evade in accordance with the "Use of Force Continuum" (more below), though in a later post, you say, "Running is something I hadnt thought of, and will have to take to heart though."

    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    I faced both of them and in a calm loud voice stated "I don't want to have any trouble here with us"

    At this point the skinny guy stepped infront of his friend and started pushing him back saying "You dont want this, your drunk and acting like an a$$, leave this guy alone, we're just going in the store, leave this guy alone" etc etc etc.
    Even your verbalization is a correct attempt to deescalate and maybe one reason that luck was on your side this night.

    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    ....I would probably have stayed away from someone too close to my car door. Two guys in front of me, and one of them grabbing for me would probably have had the big guy tasting some OC spray. It would have already been in my hand.
    Any other movements by either would probably have made me back up and go into the store...call 911 and wait. I'm not looking for trouble, nor will I tolerate aggressive behavior...either I 'exit' the area, if possible, or 'exit' the individual.
    retsupt understands the "Use of Force Continuum": Avoid - Evade - Counter; and use lethal force in self defense only if in "imminent and OTHERWISE UNAVOIDABLE danger of death or serious bodily harm" [-Ayoob as quoted in Defensive Living by Lovette and Spaulding - a very thought provoking book that motivates self defense skill development].
    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    ....My thought at that point was draw and hold semi low ready. If he continued forward its a shoot scenario. Like I said in my mind the lines were drawn. No time for hesitation at 6 paces
    All's well, but did you do everything to avoid having to shoot? As others said (including claude clay and atctimmy, below), does drawing to low ready accomplish anything? Lose the low ready and make a tactical retreat (keeping eyes on the threat. You can make a lot of distance with a big spiral out to good, solid cover - or out to the safest exit from the situation like back into the store as retsupt suggests) while the drunk is giving you the chance.
    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    ....
    as for the gun.....once it comes out , the longer it stays out the less effective it becomes to make them leave you and the harder it is to put away. the drunk knows its a gun and he ain't been shot yet so its not gonna happen. and to put it away you would have to leave--which is what you would have done in the 1st place.

    not all answers come from the bbl of a gun.

    deescalating, removal of self from the location. losing face----who cares, i mean truelly...it mattes so little as to not be worthy of consideration.
    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    OP I have a suggestion...RUN! If you are a fit guy like you said in your OP then run away. Once you realized he was drunk why didn't you book. It's not like he had a weapon and you were worried about getting shot in the back.

    It might seem stupid and cowardly but you could have just turned and ran away from him, you had a whole parking lot to run him til he puked.
    Big fat guys run out of steam pretty fast. Also the running would create space and make it clear to an arresting officer what was taking place. I you ran and they chased then you really would have established "fear for your life".
    Claude clay and atctimmy also understand the "Use of Force Continuum".

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    It is true that drunk people feel less pain than sober people to a point. However like Old School pointed out here, the right pain can get their attention. And then like Guantes suggested, they comply.
    But Guantes also said that there are two kinds of confrontations: to control someone or to take them out.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    One thing that I have found in my brawling days that will always work is taking their air temporarily. A light knife edge to the trachea will temporarily collaspe it making breathing impossible for a few minutes. This gets their attention. It is legal for me to do under the color of authority, but a citizen can get away with it.

    Another great "stopper" is a kick to the Common Peronial Nerve, located on the side of the leg, about 6 inches above the knee cap. you can strike it with your shin and if hit very hard will bring them to the ground. Your shins are like axe handles, and you have 2 with you every day. Anyone who doubts the excruciating pain this will cause can have their significant other try it out on them, just dont hit the knee cap!

    If these do not work, then you better shoot! However, Its easier to get away from a bad day in court with these methods.
    I don't have any "brawling days", but you've got to practice these target strikes (I know the thigh is almost the biggest target I could ask for) or have them in muscle memory from experience. OK if I happen to get them, but pain compliance and target strikes are not options on which I'm staking my life.

    IMO, the thread got with what drunks may or may not feel or do . A threat is a threat.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  5. #64
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    This whole scenario brings up an important question I am wondering about.

    Sorry, I haven't been around drunk people before. Yes, I know, I have no life and never go to parties or any of that. Now I've read that alcohol can affect people in different ways. Some might be melancholy (perhaps like this guy) and others might become aggressive. I also have heard that with the harder drugs, the judgement is so impaired that when faced with the muzzle of a handgun pointed right at somebody, they may not be afraid at all. Would this happen with alcohol? Is there any chance that had you drawn your gun, would this big guy have even realized the danger is was in?
    That's his problem, his consequence for being drunk. If he is perceived as a lethal threat, esp since he wasnt alone...which he could be by someone like me...a woman alone in a parking lot...he may end up paying the ultimate price for his mistake. If he kept coming in the face of a drawn gun...exactly what conclusion should I make? IMO, that he is going to kill me or inflict gross bodily harm. And sorry, but I'm not risking someone doing that to me. If I was, why would I bother carrying a firearm?


    Would I have to deal with the emotional and legal consequences of that shooting? Yes, but I have studied and trained and believe that I will make a reasonable decision under those circumstances. He will also have to pay the consequences for his choices and actions.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    OP I have a suggestion...RUN! If you are a fit guy like you said in your OP then run away. Once you realized he was drunk why didn't you book. It's not like he had a weapon and you were worried about getting shot in the back.

    It might seem stupid and cowardly but you could have just turned and ran away from him, you had a whole parking lot to run him til he puked.
    Big fat guys run out of steam pretty fast. Also the running would create space and make it clear to an arresting officer what was taking place. I you ran and they chased then you really would have established "fear for your life".
    I have to say that the only thing I think the OP did wrong was letting the guy get that close to him...wut??? Otherwise he did well, but as a woman, no way would that guy have gotten that close to me in a parking lot unless I was drunk!
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #66
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    You know, this just made me remember.. We had a teenage boy killed in the parking lot of a Target store a few miles from here recently. They said it happened at 2:00am. He was an employee leaving work. Nobody ever figured out what happened or any sort of motive. Unfortunately, this kid wasn't old enough to have had a concealed handgun (at least legally, anyway). The OC spray is a concept I'm still struggling with. When I go out for a walk or a jog I've been carrying it in my hand. That way if somebody jumps me, I have an immediate response, which can be followed up with either Aikido moves or my gun as appropriate. But in a situation like this, when it is hard to tell if they guys are trying to do you harm, or are just weird, it'd be hard to know when/if to spray them. I know that in a lot of muggings, people will act and do strange things to confuse you before they make their move. That is what I would have been worried about in this situation. Are they just pretending to be drunk idiots in order to get me to let my guard down? At which point it makes it difficult to know what response to use. For example, if you spray the guy and he was planning to attack you, you may have just put a stop to that. But if he wasn't planning to do that and you spray him, his buddy may decided that was uncalled for and he may attack you instead. So you may actually make things worse.

    This was definitely a situation without an easy solution, other than just running away like others have said. I'm rarely out at 2:00am, but one those times that I am I keep my situational awareness at its absolute highest state. Perhaps to a point some people might even call paranoia. But I think had it been me, given the time of night, I would have probably stayed back some distance when I saw people getting out of their cars and only approached when they were gone. Even during the day I try to keep my distance from everyone and other cars, but there are a lot more people around during the day, making it more difficult. At 2:00am, it shouldn't be that hard to just keep your distance until they have left the area you need to go to.
    Sorry but you sound like you cant read situations for .....anything. As you somewhat admit with a lack of experience with certain things...like alcohol...and as evidenced by some of your posts here.

    For any of us who carry, unless where our Castle Doctrine or similar covers us....we MUST retreat if we can (unless we choose to intercede where we see the commission of a felony or gross bodily harm to others...that is optional in some states)...


    If you can retreat...then DO SO. Dont try and convince them your gun is real. Dont bother with OC. Dont use Aikaido. Dont try and figure out their intentions...if you can RUN...RUN! Just LEAVE. AVOID. Get out of Dodge. GO!
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #67
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I've said before, a couple of days with ice packs and Advil is a hell of a lot cheaper than spending $100,000 plus on a murder trial.
    Hmm. Do you think that as a woman, I would have a hard time proving...in this scenario...that I felt my life was in danger? A large man tries to grab me and he has 3 friends with him?

    What do others here think?

    True, my first move would be to retreat....get cars between us, run, etc. But if not?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pistology View Post
    A threat is a threat.
    x2.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10thmtn View Post
    Those of you who advocate getting into a fist fight as a CCW carrier need to remember that any fight you get into involves a gun - yours. Do you really want to risk having your gun taken from you after you get beat down?

    I'm not getting into a fist fight. I'm not putting myself into a situation where my gun can be used against me. Disengage, de-escalate, avoid - yes. Fist fight, grappling - no way.But the real lesson learned here is - you don't need beer (or anything else) after midnight.

    Glad it turned out ok.

    By the way - put a laser on that gun, use FMJ for penetration, practice putting the bullets where they count, and stop worrying about caliber. Caliber does not make up poor bullet placement - and with proper placement, caliber does not matter much.

    This says it best for me, especially since the OP stated this guy was huge and intimidating. Granted the friend was level headed and talked the drunk down, but had the OP actually delivered a punch instead of a push (which btw sounds like a very nicely executed move) the whole thing could have quickly gone to three on one. Lets not forget there was also a woman with the other two guys. Sometime the women can be enough by themselves to restrain your arms casuing you to take punches to the head with no means to block them.

    I think th OP did pretty good. He was SA aware of their presence, but like me he doesn't always make large circles around someone on the street to always maintain the "21 foot" clear zone. Lets face it in real life it's not always possible to keep 21 feet between you and everyone else. Ever try to exit a store without getting within 21 feet of someone in the parking lot?

    The OP said he never considered fleeing, and I think in the situation as explained he did fine, I think the fact that he used a command voice and justified his action immediatly after the push was neccessary and a good idea. If he wanted to back away after that point that would have been OK.

    All in all I think he did very good. He managed to escape the hug, created distance, checked his 6, used command voice, articulated his desire to avoid a confrontation. He didn't esculate, he didn't brandish, he didn't shoot, he didn't get arrested, he didn't get the crap beat out of him, he didn't get killed.
    Sounds like a passing grade to me.

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    You did great

    The Kel Tech .380 is fine

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Hmm. Do you think that as a woman, I would have a hard time proving...in this scenario...that I felt my life was in danger? A large man tries to grab me and he has 3 friends with him?

    What do others here think?

    True, my first move would be to retreat....get cars between us, run, etc. But if not?
    I think in your case, shooting him down would be ok. Disparity of force would be on your side as a woman. Im not sure about the state of washington, but in MI, we have no duty to retreat.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

  13. #72
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A few added points.

    It is natural that there will be disagreement on the handling of such a situation. This is to be expected based on a number of things including, but not limited to age, size, condition, training, experience, sex, local statutes, tools carried, etc.

    In 9MMare and other females case, the disparity of force between a female and a 300 pound male is obvious and significant. For males it will be less, but still may exist.

    I agree re de-escalate and disengage if possible. I'm not going to run for several reasons. I have chased and taken down enough people that I know how vulnerable you are running, if overtaken from behind. Besides, I'm too old to run.

    I don't know if I would go in the store of not, I would make that call at the time. The reason I say that is that if it should become physical, I would rather be outside than in among the racks and other obstacles. There is the advantage that the clerk might call 911, but being 2:00 am when the bars close, the response time may be short or it may be long.

    In my case due to my size (5'8", 150lbs) there would be some disparity of force advantage, but I would not want to rely on it to the level of using lethal force. I believe it would allow some other measures.

    I probably would have handled it similar to the op up to the point of his backing off. If it progressed beyond that point my next action would have been oc. At that point I would leave via my vehicle if possible, call LE to explain the incident and arrange a meet. Had it progressed beyond that, a further attempt to de-escalate, then engagement using my sap (legal to carry under my CWP) and I believe a reasonable leveling of the disparity of force) to nonlethal areas to end the engagement.

    Some have mentioned the reluctance to engage physically while wearing a gun and while it is a valid concern, I have engaged in numerous physical encounters while wearing a visible gun, without its loss. Awareness of the potential problem will allow it to be mitigated as much as possible.

    Like some others, I have (due to occupation) been in multiple encounters (fights) with those that were drunk and those that were not. While this is not a talisman, it does provide considerable experience in handling drunks and the related problems.

    De-escalation is always desirable, but when not possible, progressive escalation as required by the situation is usually viewed as reasonable.

    My actions may not be suitable or viable to some others, just as their actions may not be suitable or viable to me.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  14. #73
    VIP Member Array wmhawth's Avatar
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    Lots of variables for sure, including the fact that an oversized farm boy who is liquored up and blowing off steam may be a different animal than some drug crazed meth head. In either case the first priority my brain is going to focus on is how not to engage. This of course will be different for a law enforcement officer whos job it is to control the out of control kid. My options are limited. My age and my size rule out physical engagement with the big kid and I sure don't want to shoot holes in some big stupid kid with a snoot full of John Daniels.

  15. #74
    Member Array cmycek's Avatar
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    I'd avoid the fisticuffs no matter how well you are trained. My 6' 4" 250 lbs buddy who boxed Golden Gloves had that ColdShot mind set....until he and my other buddy (6' 5" and 280) got stabbed outside a bar in Virginia Beach. Both survived, and have never thrown a punch again.

    I worked as a bouncer in college, and can attest that drunks aren't good at fighting, but that was in a controlled environment where WE had disparity of force. Never threw out anyone before aligning strength in numbers.
    Exercise your 2nd amendment rights....not doing so jeopardizes that right for everyone.

  16. #75
    Member Array cmycek's Avatar
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    BTW, they hadn't started drinking yet, and say they never saw the two guys pull the knives.
    Exercise your 2nd amendment rights....not doing so jeopardizes that right for everyone.

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