Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned - Page 6

Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

This is a discussion on Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree in so much that physical engagement would not be my first choice. It would not be my second choice. It may not even ...

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  1. #76
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I agree in so much that physical engagement would not be my first choice. It would not be my second choice. It may not even be my third choice, but I recognize that at some point it may be necessary.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".


  2. #77
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    one lesson to learn from this, beer runs should be made before midnight
    I'm glad someone else brought this up.

    The primary part of your SA should be avoidance.

    I think next time you may want to stock up on a six pack at home before it gets dark; so you don't have to stop on the way home at 2am.

    I'm no slouch @ 6 235#. Even at 50yrs old, I would bet money that my Hth skills can handle most 2-3 unarmed BGs. But, I can't think of ANYTHING that would make me go to a stop-&-rob at 2am.

    But under the circumstances, I think the OP did exactly the right thing during what could have become a bad situation.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    I'm glad someone else brought this up.

    The primary part of your SA should be avoidance.

    I think next time you may want to stock up on a six pack at home before it gets dark; so you don't have to stop on the way home at 2am.

    I'm no slouch @ 6 235#. Even at 50yrs old, I would bet money that my Hth skills can handle most 2-3 unarmed BGs. But, I can't think of ANYTHING that would make me go to a stop-&-rob at 2am.

    But under the circumstances, I think the OP did exactly the right thing during what could have become a bad situation.
    Place is far from a "Stop and Rob" for those not familiar with the chain, Meijer is a local Super Walmart or Super Target competitor. Upscale from Walmart, and the standard "I need PVC pipe, diapers, and asparagus at 3AM" kinda place.

  4. #79
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    I agree with OP. Meijer isn't the same as the kind of liquor stores and/or gas stations that are known for being robbed in the middle of the night. I'm a night owl and although I'm not out late at night like I used to be when I was younger, I do appreciate places that stay open all night. There's been times I've been working on a project and appreciated that I could run to Wal-Mart or a place like that to pick up Misc. things. There might be something to the saying that nothing good happens after mid-night but at the same time, look at all of the crappy stuff that happens in the middle of the day. I remember when I was in college my mom made a quick stop at McDonalds. I don't remember why we didn't go through the drive-thru. She parked the car in the parking lot and went inside while I waited in the car. Before she even made it back to the car, a street person stops her and bums breakfast money off of her. She wasn't assaulted but that didn't make it any less creepy at how aggressive and persistent he was in asking for his handout. At the same time, this all happened on a College campus so you would think that college PD would prevent this kind of thing from happening.

    People are mugged and or assaulted in the middle of the day just like they are at night. Is there a higher rate at night? I would assume it would be higher at night but I would also that its higher in high-risk areas, i.e. bad side of town, bars, etc.

    So while it may appear to be feasible to warn the OP to stop for his beer in the middle of the day, who's to say that B-day boy wouldn't have started an early celebration and could still have tried to give the OP a nice big hug in the middle of the day the same as he did that night?

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I've said before, a couple of days with ice packs and Advil is a hell of a lot cheaper than spending $100,000 plus on a murder trial.
    Hmm. Do you think that as a woman, I would have a hard time proving...in this scenario...that I felt my life was in danger? A large man tries to grab me and he has 3 friends with him?

    What do others here think?

    True, my first move would be to retreat....get cars between us, run, etc. But if not?
    Really 9MMare? How many times have you heard me preach when there is an obvious disparity of force, that strategy does not apply?

    Obviously a woman against a larger stronger male has more disparity of force latitude for using lethal force against an unarmed male twice her size. Same goes with seniors, or people with obvious medical or physical disabilities. I discuss that ad-nauseum, and in great detail, repeatedly regarding disparity of force in cases where someone faces an apparent unarmed aggressor. I've probably got no less than 30 posts regarding disparity of force issues over the last couple of years.

    For me, as a former law enforcement defense/control tactics instructor, ground fighting instructor, weapon retention/disarming instructor, I'm going to hard pressed to go into court without a mark on me and explain why I had to shoot an unarmed assailant. If a prosecutor chooses to charge me on that, no doubt he's going to take maximum advantage of having those prior credentials to use against me.

    Now I also state in dozens of other posts, that I avoid those kinds of confrontations like the plague. I don't hang out in stupid places, with stupid people and for unarmed encounters I carry other tools such as pepper spray and a tactical flashlight which can be used as a Kubaton.

    But if by some strange occurrence, some nut case gets his hands on me, I'm still not moving to lethal force until I'm getting stomped into oblivion. Until I get knocked down where I can't escape, move around to absorb the impact of repeated blows and the situation clearly shows there is now an obvious disparity of force, I'm not going to employ lethal force.

    I know that that with my age, size and physical condition, that trying to explain to a jury that I shot someone before he even laid a hand on me because of some hypothetical example that I could possibly get killed with one punch isn't going to fly very well with the jury.

    Can people be killed with one punch. Absolutely. But if it happens 3 or 4 times a year across the entire country compared to the hundreds of thousands other assaults, I would say the odds of it happening to be less than 1/10 of a percent, by comparison.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #81
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    OP... you live in Michigan... Your CPL is good for Open Carrying that big old 45....

    Oh and not picking on anyones method of carry, but I can carry a full size double stack M&P 40S&W in a t-shirt and jeans. If you have the right holster (mine is the Crossbreed Super Tuck) you can carry anything. Mind you I'm 5'4" 140bls with a 32inch waist my uncle was amazed!
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
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    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Really 9MMare? How many times have you heard me preach when there is an obvious disparity of force, that strategy does not apply?

    Obviously a woman against a larger stronger male has more disparity of force latitude for using lethal force against an unarmed male twice her size. .
    *sheepish*

    Yes I know, (altho I'm not little, I'm 5'10")

    But aside from that, several people here were discussing the fact that he was drunk...and maybe shouldnt be taken so seriously, or didnt know what he was doing, or didnt really mean anything.

    *I* dont really see it that way...if a man approaches me when I've told him not to....and has friends with him....if I cant get away, then *I* believe I should presume that he is a lethal threat to me.

    But as we all know....I have to keep in mind what 'reasonable' people on a jury will think also. I could see a jury sympathising with a stupid drunk.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #83
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    *sheepish*

    Yes I know, (altho I'm not little, I'm 5'10")

    But aside from that, several people here were discussing the fact that he was drunk...and maybe shouldnt be taken so seriously, or didnt know what he was doing, or didnt really mean anything.

    *I* dont really see it that way...if a man approaches me when I've told him not to....and has friends with him....if I cant get away, then *I* believe I should presume that he is a lethal threat to me.

    But as we all know....I have to keep in mind what 'reasonable' people on a jury will think also. I could see a jury sympathising with a stupid drunk.
    I think its different for a woman on how the jury would perceive the threat, etc. Women are statistically more likely to be a victim than a man or so I would presume...it atleast appears to be that way and I believe a jury would have similar beliefs. I believe the jury would give you a lot more lee way than they would Bark'n.

  9. #84
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    This thread is heading into the area that I have the hardest time with in terms of defensive carry, determining when there is sufficient disparity of force and when the use of lethal force is justified. I apologize if this goes somewhat off the specifics of the situation, but this scenario is giving me cause me to pause and think.

    I, myself, don't intentionally go to places that are likely to get me in trouble and I am learning to maintain a better state of SA to avoid problems. Trouble, though, still has a way of finding you on occasion. One issue is when someone starts advancing on you. If you have verbally warned them, attempted to back away (if you can), and they are still advancing on you, their intentions are clear in that they intend to cause harm to you. The problem is that you can't necessarily judge or determine what their actual intentions are. Are they planning on shoving you, hitting you, or knifing you. You don't know and the first two cases fall under "simple assault" for which lethal force is not an allowed response but it is the not knowing that can be deadly.

    One of my other concerns is that predators are like wolves, they tend to travel in packs and they have planned and practiced their hunt and will tend to try and circle around to get an advantage. Again, if their objective is to get close to you, despite warnings, posturing, etc, they are clearly intending to do harm, but how much? Have they been trained and hardened in street trained in fighting? I have not and would be hard pressed to hold my own against them in HTH. In this particular case, it looks like it was one drunk and a few buddies that had their wits about them, but what if they didn't or what if they were all drunk. Does the multiple on one make for sufficient disparity of force or does it make for a case of your word against theirs?

    My wife and i have repeatedly talked about carrying OC spray in addition to a gun because it would be an intermediate step between verbal and lethal force, without requiring us to get bludgeoned first. I would hope that a typical "reasonable person" would realize that if someone continues to approach you if the face of OC spray, and especially after the application of such that their intentions are clearly to cause you great physical harm. At this point, if you draw on them and they don't stand down immediately, well then they made their choice. The problem is that the intermediate step could cost you that valuable time and distance. According to the instructor in my CCW class, studies have shown that once someone gets within about 20 feet of you, they can get to you with a knife faster than you can draw and shoot.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    This thread is heading into the area that I have the hardest time with in terms of defensive carry, determining when there is sufficient disparity of force and when the use of lethal force is justified. I apologize if this goes somewhat off the specifics of the situation, but this scenario is giving me cause me to pause and think.

    I, myself, don't intentionally go to places that are likely to get me in trouble and I am learning to maintain a better state of SA to avoid problems. Trouble, though, still has a way of finding you on occasion. One issue is when someone starts advancing on you. If you have verbally warned them, attempted to back away (if you can), and they are still advancing on you, their intentions are clear in that they intend to cause harm to you. The problem is that you can't necessarily judge or determine what their actual intentions are. Are they planning on shoving you, hitting you, or knifing you. You don't know and the first two cases fall under "simple assault" for which lethal force is not an allowed response but it is the not knowing that can be deadly.

    One of my other concerns is that predators are like wolves, they tend to travel in packs and they have planned and practiced their hunt and will tend to try and circle around to get an advantage. Again, if their objective is to get close to you, despite warnings, posturing, etc, they are clearly intending to do harm, but how much? Have they been trained and hardened in street trained in fighting? I have not and would be hard pressed to hold my own against them in HTH. In this particular case, it looks like it was one drunk and a few buddies that had their wits about them, but what if they didn't or what if they were all drunk. Does the multiple on one make for sufficient disparity of force or does it make for a case of your word against theirs?

    My wife and i have repeatedly talked about carrying OC spray in addition to a gun because it would be an intermediate step between verbal and lethal force, without requiring us to get bludgeoned first. I would hope that a typical "reasonable person" would realize that if someone continues to approach you if the face of OC spray, and especially after the application of such that their intentions are clearly to cause you great physical harm. At this point, if you draw on them and they don't stand down immediately, well then they made their choice. The problem is that the intermediate step could cost you that valuable time and distance. According to the instructor in my CCW class, studies have shown that once someone gets within about 20 feet of you, they can get to you with a knife faster than you can draw and shoot.
    I can appreciate your dilemma. It's easy to say that you are only authorized to use lethal force when there is an "Immediate and otherwise unavoidable threat of death or crippling injury to you or another innocent party." (Which, by the way, is a term you should memorize, and be intimately familiar with what that means.) Key to that defense, is that you have to be innocent. It can't turn out to be shown that you were a willing participant, the aggressor, or involved in any illegality.

    But as you said, there seems to be a lot of grey areas. Especially when it comes to shooting someone who appears to be unarmed. What is disparity of force? How can that apply to me? What if there are more than one person? Is two bad guys who are the same size as me a disparity or does there need to be more? What if I'm in pretty good shape, solidly built, but I just had knee surgery and I can't run away or move around as I normally would?

    These are all valid questions. There are a lot of grey areas in lethal force law. And it's very difficult to adequately explain all the minutia and nuances to novices or the inexperienced in a forum such as this one.

    The cold hard truth is that there is no substitute for training in such matters. I could attempt to explain a lot to you, but it's always better to seek out reliable information from expert instructors. There are a lot of legal issues involved as well. We have had countless threads which touch on and/or talks in depth about disparity of force and other issues in lethal force over the years.

    People here who may have a good grasp on how it works and how it should be applied will often discuss it in various threads which puts forth a hypothetical scenario or events which has happened in the news, but for a lot of our new members trying to follow along, it can be easy to get confused.

    A lot of people are here because they say they can't afford to spend $300 - $800 tuition for such a class, not including travel expense, meals and lodging to get to the class.

    I wish there were an easy way around it, but the reality is, there really isn't a substitute for proper training and education.

    It is true, that thousands upon thousands of people obtain their ccw permit, never seek out formalized additional training other than the state required minimum dictated to get their permit and end up doing just fine. I would say that just having a ccw permit and the subtle changes you make in your lifestyle, how you carry yourself in public and how one develops a higher level of situational awareness goes a long way in reducing their likelihood of becoming a target in the first place.

    But I would be remiss if I didn't say that there are also hundreds if not thousands of people doing hard time in prison over a manslaughter conviction because they didn't know they were crossing over the line when they were trying to defend themself. They aren't bad people, they just didn't realize they were doing something wrong when they erroneously believed they were on solid ground to shoot the guy. You can tell the police you were in fear of losing your life, but that's not an automatic free pass. It has to be reasonable for a jury of your peers to believe you were in fear for your life if they too were placed in the same situation. In other words, It has to pass the smell test.

    Knowledge is power. And the more knowledge you have, the more options you are going to have. I have no idea what your level of expertise is, or what kind of training you have had beyond your state minimum requirement. But if you haven't taken any advance defensive shooting classes, I would urge anyone to do so.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #86
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    Place is far from a "Stop and Rob" for those not familiar with the chain, Meijer is a local Super Walmart or Super Target competitor. Upscale from Walmart, and the standard "I need PVC pipe, diapers, and asparagus at 3AM" kinda place.
    Thanks for the clarity; I was not familiar with the chain. But, I still believe a little forethought will help avoid the potential of a 2am encounter.

    I've had to go out to places like SWM and the pharmacy late at night on a few occassions; (mostly when my kids were sick and it was an emercency).

    I mean no offense and it's JMHO; BUT there is NO possible way "beer" qualifies as an emergency. (That's why I said what I said.)

    IMHO; the time to stock up on things like beer, smokes, tampons, OTC meds and other such items is whenever you do the weekly grocery shopping. That way even if you are caught out at 2am, a stop for "NON-essentials" wouldn't be required.

    Like I said before, you handled the situation extremely well!

    But, you need to ask yourself "HOW" you may be able to "avoid" placing yourself in any similer situations in the future. (I think this is where a little more "forethought" in the "Avoidance" aspect of SA will be beneficial.)

    -

  12. #87
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    bad people have the same freedom of movement as everyone else.

    thinking that 'this place' is a nice one, or in a nice area....is wrong thinking.

    wrong place, wrong time can happen most anywhere at any time.

    .....plan ahead and if your initial assumption is positive; re-think it twice
    tcox4freedom and Bark'n like this.
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  13. #88
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    @bark'n, thank you for the detailed reply. The truth is that I have had next to no training beyond the required minimum and upon receiving that, I realized that it was woefully inadequate. I say next to none because I have been voracious at reading everything I can get my hands on. At some point, hopefully sooner rather than later, I would really like to take some professional training in this regard. In the short run, paying for the CCW class and licenses (for two) is running me close to $500 (and we don't even own any guns yet as we are waiting for the permits before even having one for home), so training isn't in my immediate budget. For the time being, I am trying to read, research, and learn everything that I can regarding the subject. Understanding difference scenarios, seeing how others avoided or extracted themselves from situations and so forth. I do realize that this isn't a substitute for proper training. It is my hope, though, that such research would also help me to get more out of such training when I do take it as I would hopefully have some understanding to draw from and have a better idea of what questions to ask, and even make a better choice as to what particular training class(es) to take.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    @bark'n, thank you for the detailed reply. The truth is that I have had next to no training beyond the required minimum and upon receiving that, I realized that it was woefully inadequate. I say next to none because I have been voracious at reading everything I can get my hands on. At some point, hopefully sooner rather than later, I would really like to take some professional training in this regard. In the short run, paying for the CCW class and licenses (for two) is running me close to $500 (and we don't even own any guns yet as we are waiting for the permits before even having one for home), so training isn't in my immediate budget. For the time being, I am trying to read, research, and learn everything that I can regarding the subject. Understanding difference scenarios, seeing how others avoided or extracted themselves from situations and so forth. I do realize that this isn't a substitute for proper training. It is my hope, though, that such research would also help me to get more out of such training when I do take it as I would hopefully have some understanding to draw from and have a better idea of what questions to ask, and even make a better choice as to what particular training class(es) to take.
    Again, I understand your dilemma. And this is what I am going to recommend. Massad Ayoob is one of the best lethal force instructors in the world. Especially when it come to the legal ramifications surrounding lethal force issues. His 40 hour lethal force program MAG-40 and also his LFI-1 course are two of the best programs out there for the information you are seeking. Essentially they are the same programs. (LFI-1 is taught under his former company, Lethal Force Institute and MAG-40 is taught under his new company Massad Ayoob Group.)

    Understanding you do not have the $700 at this time to attend one of his 40 hour programs, I would recommend you get his video which is titled Judicious Use of Deadly Force.

    It is only $35 and it is a two hour lecture portion which comes straight out of his MAG-40 / LFI-1 course. In this video he goes into great detail laying out the foundation for the rules surrounding use of deadly force. It will show you, in great detail, just about everything you will need to know surrounding "disparity of force"; A.O.J. (ability, opportunity, & jeopardy); offering an "affirmative defense", to keep the average person out of trouble. It's the cheapest and most valuable video instruction you can get anywhere for $35. You will watch it again and again and probably even take written notes as you watch it.

    In the link I provided above, there are several of his video presentations, all of them, worth every penny. I have 5 of them. But Judicious Use of Deadly Force would be the one I would get first. If you get the DVD version and feel you did not get your money's worth, I will buy it from you. I got mine in VHS before it was offered in DVD and I will be more than happy to get the DVD version if you feel it wasn't worth the money. Just send me a PM anytime and I'll do you right. That's how confident I am you'll learn from it.
    wmhawth likes this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #90
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmycek View Post
    I'd avoid the fisticuffs no matter how well you are trained. My 6' 4" 250 lbs buddy who boxed Golden Gloves had that ColdShot mind set....until he and my other buddy (6' 5" and 280) got stabbed outside a bar in Virginia Beach. Both survived, and have never thrown a punch again.

    I worked as a bouncer in college, and can attest that drunks aren't good at fighting, but that was in a controlled environment where WE had disparity of force. Never threw out anyone before aligning strength in numbers.
    What mindset? I don't want to deal with the legal hassle of shooting an unarmed man, so I'll use my body as a weapon. In more serious scenarios, I'll use weapons if I deem it appropriate. I am also exceedingly polite in public and will look "weak" to avoid an altercation. But when it's on, it's on. Just like everybody on this site, I think about self defense situations and I think about how I will react. There are times when I'll use my fists, and that's just the way it is. I never said I was invincible, but I am prepared to go to pretty extreme places if need be.

    Boxing is a great, great, great tool. Your friend may have been unlucky, or his mindset may have not been right for that split second. Sometimes people get stabbed...if your buddy was mouthing off, then maybe it was his own fault, but stuff happens.

    I practice boxing, and it is a sport. A sport does not always equal combat. I believe that boxing has a huge transfer to streetfighting, but the combat mindset must also be developed.

    People break in combat. I've seen it happen. Others due what it takes to win. That's the mindset I have. Winning. I am by no means invincible, however.

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