Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

This is a discussion on Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by booyah Cold shot, Unlike you I dont beleive in the concept of a "friendly fist fight" A fight is a fight, and ...

Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567
Results 91 to 103 of 103
Like Tree33Likes

Thread: Altercation last night, almost went bad fast. Recap and lessons learned

  1. #91
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    891
    Quote Originally Posted by booyah View Post
    Cold shot,

    Unlike you I dont beleive in the concept of a "friendly fist fight"

    A fight is a fight, and the only one who says if its a fight to the death is the guy who's winning.
    Sorta the same thing as bringing a knife to a gun fight, at what point do you know its a gun fight? At the point the other guy pulls the gun.

    As far as H2H I do have a fair amount of training, I had a brown belt in taekwondo before I dropped out of the program, so while I'm rusty I do know how to handle myself.

    I would love to have the option of an ASP, but currently my state laws dictate that an expanding baton is a "Concealed Weapon" and not covered under my "Concealed Pistol License" so I'd rather not start out with a fairly nasty misdemeanor charge.

    Running is something I hadnt thought of, and will have to take to heart though.
    I hear you man. If you lose a fight, the other guy can keep beating you until he decides to quit. If I'm on your jury, you go home. So just keep on training and good luck.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #92
    Senior Member Array Adkjoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Northern Vermont
    Posts
    765
    Honestly a guy that big my first response would of been a swift kick to the groin and then put distance between us. I'm 5'4 145lb I'm not fist fighting 6'4 300+lb

    I go for Jim and the boys while screaming "I WILL NOT BE A VICTIM"
    Vermont does not issue Permit/Licenses to Carry a Concealed firearm. Vermont allows anyone
    who can legally own a firearm to carry it concealed without a permit of any kind.

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    California
    Posts
    2,910
    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    OP I have a suggestion...RUN! If you are a fit guy like you said in your OP then run away. Once you realized he was drunk why didn't you book. It's not like he had a weapon and you were worried about getting shot in the back.

    It might seem stupid and cowardly but you could have just turned and ran away from him, you had a whole parking lot to run him til he puked.
    Big fat guys run out of steam pretty fast. Also the running would create space and make it clear to an arresting officer what was taking place. I you ran and they chased then you really would have established "fear for your life".
    +1

    I would have to aggree 100% of this post. After I read the OP I was thinking of what the attorney would bring up if it were to turn into a shooting, and this was it. And I know, I wasn't there and not here to judge at all. Glad it turned out well for everyone. I just hope that if I were to be in that same position, I would think of that before it got to the stage of putting my hand on or near my firearm. Drunks = bad judgement and impaired motor skills. Confronting just one of them, (others didn't have a problem with you) I think you had the upper hand without the need to draw. Might be another story if you did your best to get away and he did catch you though. However, seems like he deserved that initial shove for physically invading your space as a total stranger.
    Vietnam Vets, WELCOME HOME

    Crossman 760 BB/Pellet, Daisy Red Ryder, Crossman Wrist Rocket, 14 Steak Knives, 3 Fillet Knives, Rolling Pin-14", Various Hunting Knives, 2 Baseball Bats, 3 Big Dogs and a big American Flag flying in the yard. I have no firearms; Try the next house.

  5. #94
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,786
    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    What mindset? I don't want to deal with the legal hassle of shooting an unarmed man, so I'll use my body as a weapon. In more serious scenarios, I'll use weapons if I deem it appropriate. I am also exceedingly polite in public and will look "weak" to avoid an altercation. But when it's on, it's on. Just like everybody on this site, I think about self defense situations and I think about how I will react. There are times when I'll use my fists, and that's just the way it is. I never said I was invincible, but I am prepared to go to pretty extreme places if need be.

    Boxing is a great, great, great tool. Your friend may have been unlucky, or his mindset may have not been right for that split second. Sometimes people get stabbed...if your buddy was mouthing off, then maybe it was his own fault, but stuff happens.

    I practice boxing, and it is a sport. A sport does not always equal combat. I believe that boxing has a huge transfer to streetfighting, but the combat mindset must also be developed.

    People break in combat. I've seen it happen. Others due what it takes to win. That's the mindset I have. Winning. I am by no means invincible, however.
    Great your a trained fighter, I'm trained according to ILEA standards as far as force on force. You know whats wrong with your mindset. When a normal guy walks into a fight, he brings his fists. When you get into a fight, you bring your fists and your gun. Now, say that you are in a bar and some guy wants to throw down with you, starts shoving you and cussing,and instead of disengaging and trying to get away you go ahead and respond by hitting him in the face. Now, you have both started fighting. At some point you get taken off your feet, lets say at this point you are losing the fight. You pull out your handgun and fire three shots killing him. Guess what the responding LEO's are gonna do, start questioning everyone. When everyone tells the LEO's you two started fighting and you pulled a gun and shot him once you were on the ground, now your gonna be informed that you are under arrest for homicide. The DA is gonna look at your case and see that you willingly entered into a fight with a drunk guy in a bar, got your ass kicked, and shot him to death. This is called mutual combat and under these circumstances it is not self defense. You willingly enter into a fight with someone and its mutual combat. Lets go a different route with this, you are fighting and he hits your gun, now he knows you have it. He then begins beating you down and your losing, he takes your gun and in a drunken fit of rage shoots you dead. Now your dead. All because you HAD to get into a fight with this guy because you didn't wanna stand there or retreat from the situation. How about we do this. He comes at you in the bar or parking lot. Lets say he thinks you were checkin out his old lady, a seemingly innocent problem, but he sees it as a fighting matter. He wants to kick you in the teeth for looking at her in what he feels is the wrong way. Now instead of instantly fighting him, back away, tell him you were only looking because she is beautiful and he is a very lucky man and you meant no disrespect. He keeps coming. You OC him, he keeps coming. You pull your weapon. He keeps coming. You fire and he drops. Now you have witnesses saying that guy tried to start a fight, you tried to defuse him with kind words and he kept coming, then you sprayed him with mace and he wiped it off and tried to kill you so you shot him. Which sounds better to a jury. Man gets in bar fight, pulls gun and shoots brawl partner or Man attacked in parking lot and at the last possible moment shot someone after trying to talk, macing them and then finally shooting. You decide weather or not you wanna keep fighting every punk who decides he does not like you. You will eventually lose and shoot, and then you will be in jail. Never fight unless its absolutely critical to do so, and then only enough to get past the opponent and run.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  6. #95
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    891
    Your post is borderline incoherent, but I'll try to address some of the points. And for the love of god learn the difference between your and you're.

    I don't understand how some guy mouthing off to me and then shoving me (which will undoubtedly start a fight) is mutual combat. Also, why would I necessarily shoot him? I have already explained that I'm not too keen on shooting people, so why would I start now?

    I would happily retreat from many situations, but if some guy is threatening me, my reaction is not necessarily to turn my back. Real cops have already explained the disadvantage of running away, and I have seen real life encounters where trying to hit somebody and run away has backfired.

    The bit about the "beautiful old lady" and "you're a lucky man" is high comedy. You don't get out much, eh?

    I do not plan on carrying OC anytime soon. I feel like it's a waste of time and kind of girly. How bout them apples?

    Where in any of my posts did I imply that I want to fight any punk that doesn't like me? I haven't gotten in any fights in years and years. I'm a cool headed dude, but I'm not going to be pushed around like some punk. I'm also not going to take off sprinting in some situations. I might do so, or I might slowly back off, or I might fight depending on the circumstances.

    This site is designed for people to discuss shooting people in self defense, but I'm somehow out of line for punching somebody in self defense? I don't know man, you seem to be stretching it a bit.

  7. #96
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,786
    Your not out of line. My point is that if you willingly enter into a fight with someone whom you did not try to retreat from, it is mutual combat, you have both agreed to fight. In Indiana, you would both be going to jail for battery.
    tcox4freedom likes this.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  8. #97
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Lansing Mi
    Posts
    7,170
    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Your not out of line. My point is that if you willingly enter into a fight with someone whom you did not try to retreat from, it is mutual combat, you have both agreed to fight. In Indiana, you would both be going to jail for battery.
    He never said he was willing, He said if he had to. In some states there is no duty to retreat in SD. Im not sure about Virgina, but I am about MI. The OP had no duty to retreat.
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  9. #98
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina USA
    Posts
    1,549
    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot View Post
    Your post is borderline incoherent, but I'll try to address some of the points. And for the love of god learn the difference between your and you're.
    The main problem with chis' post is his failure to use paragraphs. But, what he said about "mutual" combat is right on the money.

    I don't understand how some guy mouthing off to me and then shoving me (which will undoubtedly start a fight) is mutual combat.
    That is a risk you take "IF" you don't try to retreat or de-escalate the situation. In my state there isn't any duty to retreat. But, there is also such a thing has "mutual combat". So chris is right about this being a risk.

    Also, why would I necessarily shoot him? I have already explained that I'm not too keen on shooting people, so why would I start now?
    I am glad to hear it. Though, I don't know of ANY CWP holder that is "keen" on using their firearm.

    I would happily retreat from many situations, but if some guy is threatening me, my reaction is not necessarily to turn my back...
    I agree 100% with this statement. "NEVER turn you back and RUN"; is pretty much my motto as well. I think this will (more often than not) generate an IMMEDIATE predatory response when involved in a "violent" crime.

    I do not plan on carrying OC anytime soon. I feel like it's a waste of time and kind of girly. How bout them apples?
    I just think this statement is a little immature. OC definitely has it's place in any SD toolkit. I know a LOT of people that carry pepper spray; and I do not know anyone that can be called "girly". (Even the women that carry OC)

    I haven't gotten in any fights in years and years. I'm a cool headed dude, but I'm not going to be pushed around like some punk. I'm also not going to take off sprinting in some situations. I might do so, or I might slowly back off, or I might fight depending on the circumstances.
    Same here.

    This site is designed for people to discuss shooting people in self defense, but I'm somehow out of line for punching somebody in self defense? I don't know man, you seem to be stretching it a bit.
    I personally don't think you're out of line at all. I've enjoyed reading your posts. The only reason I interjected myself into this conversation was to ask you;

    "Do you personally know what it feels like to "kill" another human being in a criminal (not war) confrontation?"

    Even if you are in the 1000% "RIGHT", knowing that you have just taken anothers life is one of the worst feelings you can imagine. That's one reason people look to LtL methods of protection.

    I'm a huge advocate when it comes "minimun" HtH skills for a CCer. Believe me when I tell you I was once one of the BADDEST MFers walking the streets of Memphis. There wasn't any 4 men that I couldn't destroy with my barehands.

    I'm now in my 50's; and have been disabled for 10yrs. Years of RX meds have made me overweight and out of shape; and @ 6' 235# I can still KA and even "kill" with my barehands if I need to. But, I would much rather have the option of OC in situations that talking doesn't work and RUNNING is not an option.

    There are situations where SD is warrented; but, lethal force may not be. So, OC definitely has it's place.

    Carry on;
    This has been a good thread.

  10. #99
    Senior Member Array Cold Shot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    891
    So, in Indiana, if a man attacks another man, and the man being attacked fights the dude off and doesn't use excessive force, then they're both going to jail? Can someone please chime in on this one?

    I will try to deescalate situations if I feel that I could do it safely. I understand the principles behind the continuum of force. Verbal commands, verbal commands with consequences, restraining techniques, etc. In the civilian word it is similar. If some man started acting aggressively with me and had not yet touched me, I would certainly try to calm him down and scan for exits. At the same time, I will be scanning for improvised weapons and weak spots to attack, because I will be ready to throw down if need be.

    tcos - you seem like a cool dude. The OC comment in my last post was tongue and cheek. I am a big fan of freedom, and people can do whatever they want, and I try not to be judgmental. Pepper spray just isn't in my repertoire yet.

    Also, my main point in this thread is that I don't want to be killing American citizens in some street confrontation. I've posted a lot, so maybe the theme has become muddled, but I don't want to have to shoot anybody. However, I look at killing like Michael Corleone in Godfather I: They're all sitting around after the Don got shot, and Michael volunteers to kill the cop and the drug dealer. Sonny is giving him grief, and Michael says, "It's not personal Sonny, it's strictly business." That's how I viewed combat, and that probably won't change much if I had to shoot somebody out in town.

    It varies from person to person, but there are many instances where I would kill a human. It's a code of sorts. But I'm also not the guy who goes on some threads and make jokes when a gangbanger gets killed. It's a serious matter, and getting emotional about it doesn't do any good.
    tcox4freedom likes this.

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    Quote Originally Posted by Cold Shot
    So, in Indiana, if a man attacks another man, and the man being attacked fights the dude off and doesn't use excessive force, then they're both going to jail? Can someone please chime in on this one?
    Generally speaking, I think that is bull crap. Mutual combat is engaging in physical actions (fighting/combat) for the purpose of fighting. If it is for self defense, it is not mutual combat. Almost any self defense action could be seen as mutual combat in that it was voluntarily engaged in. It is the purpose of the engagement of the activity that makes the difference. Attempts at de-escalation and disengagement merely reenforce the status of self defense rather than mutual combat.
    Bark'n and tcox4freedom like this.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #101
    Member
    Array armado's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    New Mexico
    Posts
    435
    You did great! They didn't hurt you and you didn't kill them. They never knew that you were armed and how close to death they were. Being armed gives me great confidence, just like it did for you.

  13. #102
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    1,786
    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Generally speaking, I think that is bull crap. Mutual combat is engaging in physical actions (fighting/combat) for the purpose of fighting. If it is for self defense, it is not mutual combat. Almost any self defense action could be seen as mutual combat in that it was voluntarily engaged in. It is the purpose of the engagement of the activity that makes the difference. Attempts at de-escalation and disengagement merely reenforce the status of self defense rather than mutual combat.
    In Indiana it is generally accepted as mutual combat when both parties become combative and fight. If you don't have more witnesses than the other guy, you both go to jail. You both get mutual combat clauses on the charges, and you both get punishment. When carrying a gun remember, your gun is in the fight too, regardless of if its pulled out.

    PS: Paragraphs are overrated.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  14. #103
    Administrator
    Array SIXTO's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    19,789
    Chris- you're wrong. There is a clear distinction for self defense bs mutual combat, even in Indiana law. Otherwise, why bother carrying? If somebody is mugging you, and you use your gun its mutual combat? That makes no sense. Nobody is arguing that its a bad idea to introduce a gun to a fist fight, thats just common sense.
    Anyway this thread has out lived it's usefulness, and has become rather borish. It's closed, there is no need to debate states laws that have no revelance to the original question.
    "Just blame Sixto"

Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

are sap gloves illegal in washington state

,

does indiana allow mutual combat

,

fist fight gun pulled

,

indiana mutual combat

,

indiana mutual.combat

,
indiana statute on mutual combat
,
is idaho mutual combat
,

is indiana a mutual combat state

,

mutual combat in indiana

,

mutual combat indiana

,

mutual combat law indiana

,
mutual combat law legal indiana
Click on a term to search for related topics.