Taking a life but flipped story got you in trouble because of no evidence.

Taking a life but flipped story got you in trouble because of no evidence.

This is a discussion on Taking a life but flipped story got you in trouble because of no evidence. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Many people are afraid of the consequences after a public shooting, for example: a good friend of my brother was being robbed by 3 men ...

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Thread: Taking a life but flipped story got you in trouble because of no evidence.

  1. #1
    Member Array defensive007's Avatar
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    Taking a life but flipped story got you in trouble because of no evidence.

    Many people are afraid of the consequences after a public shooting, for example: a good friend of my brother was being robbed by 3 men while walking alone in a alleyway when he pulled out a knife and stabbed one of them in the neck (killing him) the other two men picked up boulders and cornered him and stoned him until he was almost helpless, one of the other guys cAlled police and when police arrived they ended up turning the story on my brothers friend saying they came to help their friend that was being robbed then came to find out he was stabbed to death in front of them. Police ended up taking my brothers friend to jail where he is still serving a murder charge (aggregated assault) and he was the one being robbed to begin with but since there was not enough evidence to back his story up they took him in and not the other two. After questioning the other men they let them go after 3 days. Here we are 12 years later and he is still serving a sentence until 2023. When you are alone and no one is around to tell what happened be very weary on the situation because you can be taken as a criminal being as innocent as a Boston priest.


  2. #2
    Member Array Maltz's Avatar
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    Were the three men armed? Were they threatening him or just demanding his wallet? You can use deadly force to save your LIFE. Not your wallet.

    This sounds like like a good cautionary tale, but not of why you should be afraid to defend yourself. It's more of a tale of why it's important to know when you should or should not use deadly force. And perhaps that carrying OC spray as a non-lethal option is not a bad idea.

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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maltz View Post
    Were the three men armed? Were they threatening him or just demanding his wallet? You can use deadly force to save your LIFE. Not your wallet.

    This sounds like like a good cautionary tale, but not of why you should be afraid to defend yourself. It's more of a tale of why it's important to know when you should or should not use deadly force. And perhaps that carrying OC spray as a non-lethal option is not a bad idea.
    Why would you just hand over your wallet if asked? The threat is implied. Yeah, you can try to walk away, but if they dont allow that, then you need to defend yourself....reacting rather than 'acting' is a good way to lose any confrontation.

    Not to mention that there were 3 of them. Not to mention that only 2 of them managed to nearly kill him anyway.

    Defensive007, sympathies to your friend.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    A couple of things,I have no criminal record,so if the guy I shoot in SD has a rap sheet as long as my arm and his 2 witnesses have rap sheets who do you think the Cops are gonna believe were being robbed.There is usually more to the story than what people claim.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    As this is a "friend of your brother" I'm going to take the whole story as it was delivered... a third-person tale.

    I'd be interested in reading about the event but I'm willing to bet there's a lot more to the story.

    It could be exactly as you say or it could be .... anything.

    What I do know is that getting convicted of murder in a true self-defense case is pretty rare. It can happen, sure, but it's really not something I'm exceptionally worried about.

  6. #6
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    Very true Lima. There are a lot of people in prison for manslaughter because the went too far with lethal force when it wasn't warranted. They may have been in a self defense situation, but not all assaults and robberies warrant a lethal force response.

    I get chided a lot sometimes when I caution those who feel an unarmed thug is okay to shoot because of the old, "I could be killed with one punch" defense. Or they say "What if you can't get to your gun if you end up getting beat down and a true disparity of force comes into play?" Or another line is "What if they get a hold of your gun?"

    Well, there are no guarantee's in life. Hell, there's no guarantee that just because you carry a gun that you'll be the one walking away in the end, either.

    A lot of people are content with taking a ccw class, getting their permit and go about life with the attitude, that the likelihood of me ever needing my gun is slim to none anyways so I'll carry it with me, but I'm not too worried about ever actually needing it. I got no problem with taking that tac either. It is what it is.

    For me, I had a couple close calls early in life. Once when I was 18 and two guys attempted to rob me at knife point in a mall parking lot at Christmas time. And three others, early in my career while on the job and I was absolutely surprised I wasn't killed. They were life changing events and because of that, I'm not so cavalier about my life and the dangers of the streets. I've spent 30 years working in the streets and dealing with violence and crime victims for a living. I've been in a few scraps on the job and always come away in control. Nothing like the three early events, but scary none the less. My wife, also in the same career was permanently disabled by a mental patient going nuts. For nearly 3 decades I have studied lethal force, self defense as well as the law. I am intimately aware of the realities crime and how it affects society and the individual.

    I'm under no illusion I'm going to survive a lethal attack, an armed robbery or any other violent crime. I seek out professional training and train as much as I can, but certainly not as much as many others. I'm not a crack competition shooter making single jagged holes in the target at 30 yards. But I have decent combat accuracy, relatively quick on the draw and have an absolute win at all cost, mindset that I will survive, and I will counter-attack with explosive violence of action.

    I carry other less lethal survival tools along with the gun because, as far as I'm concerned. I don't want to spend 12 years in prison for a questionable shooting event. That's no way to spend your life. There are times I believe that I'd just as soon be killed in the initial gun fight, if I knew in advance I'd have to spend 15-20 years in prison over it. Now I may rethink that position when the time comes to it, but unless the thug is armed with a deadly weapon, lethal force is not justified. Unless there is an obvious disparity of force, I'm not going to use my gun against an unarmed man as my first line of defense. And that may include two aggressors. That is what pepper spray is for, or other less lethal tools. I'm not afraid to get roughed up a little bit if that's what it takes to avoid a bad and questionable shooting where I could go to prison.

    I'm very sorry about your brothers friend. No doubt he's probably a good guy. I can't say he wasn't justified in stabbing the guy when he was robbed. We have absolutely none of the details. Maybe he was justified, but just couldn't articulate well enough what was needed to satisfy the prosecutor and police. But someone sure didn't think it was justified. Someone's story ended up being more believable than your brothers friend.

    Sorry for the rambling... It's late and I'm just throwing out random thoughts. I'm not going to take the time to edit it out or redo it. I'm just going to post and stand by it.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #7
    Member Array ranburr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maltz View Post
    Were the three men armed? Were they threatening him or just demanding his wallet? You can use deadly force to save your LIFE. Not your wallet.
    Says who? I don't know the law in AR. But, I can certainly use deadly force to protect my wallet/property in TX.

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by defensive007 View Post
    Many people are afraid of the consequences after a public shooting, for example: a good friend of my brother was being robbed by 3 men while walking alone in a alleyway when he pulled out a knife and stabbed one of them in the neck (killing him) the other two men picked up boulders and cornered him and stoned him until he was almost helpless, one of the other guys cAlled police and when police arrived they ended up turning the story on my brothers friend saying they came to help their friend that was being robbed then came to find out he was stabbed to death in front of them. Police ended up taking my brothers friend to jail where he is still serving a murder charge (aggregated assault) and he was the one being robbed to begin with but since there was not enough evidence to back his story up they took him in and not the other two. After questioning the other men they let them go after 3 days. Here we are 12 years later and he is still serving a sentence until 2023. When you are alone and no one is around to tell what happened be very weary on the situation because you can be taken as a criminal being as innocent as a Boston priest.
    I have a feeling someone didn't have an attorney when talking to the police, and ran his mouth when asked questions...resulting in a situation where he said a lot of contradictory things, to the point the police felt they didn't have any choice but to charge him and let the court figure it out.

    Like Harold Fish.
    Bark'n likes this.

  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array deadguy's Avatar
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    Based on the limited information this whole story stinks. It's unfortunate the man is in prison for what we have been told was an act of SD.

    A few things.
    1- In an alley alone at night armed with only a knife. Not a good thing. Not good to be there period.

    2- no other people around when this happened? Sounds like it could have taken a few minutes for this to unfold completely. GG could have yelled for help.

    3- did friend say anything like "come get some" to the three guys, or acting like a tough guy which could have been seen as an aggressive act on his part?

    4- as mentioned, was attorney present? Was he questioned in hospital while recovering? Was there a trial or a plea?

    Too many variables in this and very limited information. Can't take sides here.

    And in response to not using deadly force for "just a wallet". Who said that is all they want? You are a witness to their crime against you. Dead people can't testify. That goes both ways.
    Bark'n likes this.
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    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    I need Paul Harvey to chime in with "The rest of the Story" before making any assumptions

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    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maltz View Post
    Were the three men armed? Were they threatening him or just demanding his wallet? You can use deadly force to save your LIFE. Not your wallet.
    In my state you can legally use your firearm to stop a felony in progress, robbery qualifies.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    In my state you can legally use your firearm to stop a felony in progress, robbery qualifies.
    Yeah, the guy in the original post thought the same thing.

    12 years later he's still sitting in prison trying to figure out what went wrong.

    He's got another 12 years left to figure it out.

    (I'll give him a hint: There's a big difference between "strong armed robbery and armed robbery") I'm just sayin'
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Distinguished Member Array noway2's Avatar
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    I'll give him a hint: There's a big difference between "strong armed robbery and armed robbery") I'm just sayin'
    See this link: Kinds of Robbery The section on strong arm robbery is interesting and if you "read between the lines" one can make some inferences as to how things may have gone down in this case. Pay particular attention to the part about the degree of disparity of force required to justify lethal force. Would there have been evidence of that in this case? In some states, unless one is in a castle area, lethal force to stop a felony isn't sufficient.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    See this link: Kinds of Robbery The section on strong arm robbery is interesting and if you "read between the lines" one can make some inferences as to how things may have gone down in this case. Pay particular attention to the part about the degree of disparity of force required to justify lethal force. Would there have been evidence of that in this case? In some states, unless one is in a castle area, lethal force to stop a felony isn't sufficient.
    Marc MacYoung's excellent website is a wealth of information. I've had it bookmarked for a few years and have spent many hours delving into it. Good link!

    Thanks for the post buddy!
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  15. #15
    Senior Member Array Devilsclaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    A couple of things,I have no criminal record,so if the guy I shoot in SD has a rap sheet as long as my arm and his 2 witnesses have rap sheets who do you think the Cops are gonna believe were being robbed.There is usually more to the story than what people claim.
    I was thinking along similar lines. One certainly doesn't want to get into a false sense of security, and there were 2 stories versus his 1 story, but I would think that a jury would weigh the quality of the people involved. IE: 3 known gangbangers's stories versus upstanding businessman or mild-mannered housewife. Sometimes it pays to conduct yourself in a manner that garners respect....whether that be in your dress, living, family life, or just plain moral balance.

    Don't know the guy, and I am trying not to judge him, but I can't help but ask myself the obvious questions: was it a "bad" area? 2 pm or 2 AM? Was alcohol involved? Was he squeeky clean, or hard to judge between the "good guys" and the "criminals"? Good attorney or public defender?

    I suppose it is all irrellevant to the OP's questions.......Yes, I think you MUST consider what the other side is going to say, and even more so, HOW MANY other stories are going to be told. Nowadays, most everyone carries a cellphone. If time allows, even if you cannot speak to the operator, I'd recommend dialing 911. The call will be recorded, and prove (hopefully) your warnings to the assailants to "stay back!". This kind of evidence would be very valuable to prove you were not the agressor.

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