Road Rage (Real Incident + Video)
This is a discussion on Road Rage (Real Incident + Video) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As I see more and more of these "incidents" posted, I realize that I must be one of the few people who doesn't have a ...
July 30th, 2011 06:40 AM
As I see more and more of these "incidents" posted, I realize that I must be one of the few people who doesn't have a constantly running video recording of every moment of my life. I'm so out of touch.
July 30th, 2011 07:20 AM
Hey Cummins: If you cannot drive away (just stuck in traffic) I have to reluctantly agree with you that if you are CC and this idiot decides to get off his cycle and come walking over to you with rage all over his face, there is IMO, a "reasonable presumption of imminent death or great bodily injury", which allows you to at least draw your firearm----then it gets tricky. Bottom line in this video, IMO, is if you are CC you do not start up with anyone, no matter how stupid or insulting they are---you shut up or get away but you do everything and anything to avoid the possibility that you will "push someone's buttons"---if a shooting occurs you will have a lot of explaining to do and it will cost you. You just cannot in any way elevate a simple motoring mistake into something that puts you into this situation--you shoot him--who is at fault--depending on witnesses you may be.
July 30th, 2011 07:50 AM
Well, without the video, it's probably going to be your word and that of your passenger against the word of a biker who may or may not be able to talk. Any other witnesses would probably testify that they saw a biker wearing a denim jacket with a patch on the back (could have been a gang member) stop his bike in front of the car and angrily walk back and assault the driver. In this case the driver was wrong to escalate the situation but most, if not all, of the evidence that he escalated it will be provided by his own video.
Originally Posted by kelcarry
July 30th, 2011 09:59 AM
There is a Proverb which says: "A soft answer turns away wrath" Like others have said--a simple apology probably would have worked wonders in this situation. If you are in the wrong, "man-up" and admit it.
If it didn't, and the guy on the Motorcycle comes back to assult me anyway--a little OC with dye in it would likely be an appropriate response
Scott, US Army 1974-2004
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan
July 30th, 2011 11:32 AM
I agree that ALL three, bicyclist-car driver-motorcycle drive, made mistakes and share the blame.
But putting that aside, I saw two things that no one has mentioned:
1. From the time the biker began to put the kick stand down until he was at the car window was only 4 seconds. The car driver had that little time to decide what to do and react. I know I would be in somewhat of a state of disbelief to see the biker park the bike, get off and approach my car. Would I have had time to make the decision to draw? Would I have had time to draw if I had made that decision? Would I have had time to put the window up after taking the time to decide to raise the window? I honestly don't know. Four seconds. That's all the time the driver had to process what he was seeing, make a decision and then act on that decision.
2. After returning to the bike the biker quickly cranked up, made an illegal maneuver by driving between the car in front of him and the sign on the right, made a quick right turn and left the scene. I think he realized that he had crossed the line from shouted insults to physical assault and wanted to get away before the car driver reacted. Just my opinion on that.
So maybe this can be a learning experience for all of us AFTER things escalate. Stay alert. Think ahead. And above all, TRY to be prepared for the unexpected.
NRA Life member
A muscle not exercised will eventually atrophy.
A right not exercised will eventually be taken away!
July 30th, 2011 09:23 PM
Road rage should be avoided at all times, if the potential of Road rage occurs try not to escalated the situation, and yes its hard sometimes, i know, but its just not worth it.
July 31st, 2011 03:29 AM
Think about this:
Pretend the events took place the same way except the driver of the car makes no comments except maybe an "I'm sorry." Now the biker stops and pops his kick stand down, instead of the biker punching the guy, he pulls a small fixed blade and stabs the guy in the side of his throat. At what point do you draw your weapon?
July 31st, 2011 03:47 AM
Well, at that point, you're probably going to die. But then again, why would you just sit there with an unlocked door and your window rolled down? That's kind of asking for it, isn't it?
Originally Posted by Unkind213
Really, if people don't have enough common sense to figure out these kind of situations, it's scary to know they carry a gun.
There are plenty of opportunities to escape the situation before letting the guy walk up and stab you in the neck.
First off, the driver should not have mouthed off at the biker. (Usually construed by authorities as either escalating the situation, or at least willingly engaging in the altercation).
Second, as soon as he stepped off his bike would be my cue to drive off.
Third, if traffic had me penned in and I was unable to drive off, I sure as hell wouldn't have my window rolled down or my door unlocked.
Fourth, I wouldn't shoot until I saw what would be legally considered to be a deadly weapon displayed.
Fifth, (in my case) if my window got smashed in with his fist, he would get a face full of pepper spray, with my gun held in my other hand, ready for a follow-up. I have then clearly showed an attempt to avoid lethal force, and held it as the last resort.
If he produced a deadly weapon I would then have no other choice but to shoot him. But what is that... way down at number five on the list of options?
Look, If there is no way for me to drive away, and the guy gets off the bike, both my gun and my pepper spray immediately comes out. My doors are locked, and windows are rolled up. (I keep my gun ready, but hidden out of sight). I'm prepared to defend myself with both lethal and non-lethal options, but I still have options at that point. And again, if I can drive away, I'm doing that first.
Now in my state, castle doctrine does pertain to inside my vehicle, but until he begins trying to break in, smash my window, or rip my door off, I'm still not going to shoot him. I would think the law would require there be some evidence of a deadly weapon or forcible entry into the car before you just shoot him.
The law does not allow for preemptive shooting of people who otherwise appear to be unarmed. A verbal tongue lashing usually isn't considered justification of issuing a death sentence on the offender. But feel free to try it out and report back.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
July 31st, 2011 12:01 PM
When I lived in southern Cali I rarely drove with my windows up because the weather was so nice. I think it'a bit of a stretch saying you're asking to be assaulted/killed by not having a window rolled up. I think everyone here agrees that the driver of the car shouldn't have made any comments, so I was posing the hypothetical that he didn't. Obviously driving off would be the best answer, but that is not always possible and it didn't look possible in this situation given the nature of the traffic.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
I agree with the rest of what you said, though, and that is why I keep OC in my vehicle.
July 31st, 2011 03:39 PM
What a hypocrite!
Giving lectures about lane right away and what did he do? He invaded the lane of the car that was in front of him. To use his words, not his lane (the car was already in the portion of the lane he used when he passed the car)! Talk about self-righteous behavior. Mr. traffic law connoisseur not only assaulted a motorist over a traffic infraction but failed to legally use a turning signal himself as he sped off. Given his traffic infractions, perhaps he should take a look in the mirror before he goes on another lecture series.
I wonder how he would like it if the car that he drove past drove off to catch up with him and assault him for his traffic infraction?
What was he mad about? On the appearance, it seems like a traffic infraction. Given his negligence, in adhering to traffic laws himself however, he's definitely not a slave to obeying traffic laws. So what was he really angry about? He was angry because there might have been an accident which "could" have injured him. So what his response to this? His response was to assault someone over something that could have happened.
So let me get this straight. The biker did not get hurt but on the chance that he could have been hurt, he hits someone...over something that didn't happen (he didn't get hurt).
Please feel free to argue that since the "assault" didn't take place on camera, it didn't happen. This argument, however, doesn't negate the "slap" sound that is a part of the video as well as the biker's guilty behavior - driving off in a mad rush per being guilty of assault.
I agree that the motorist should have kept his mouth shut and by mouthing off, he escalated the situation. At the same time, however, if you really wanted to be a jerk about this (and a lawyer would be), you could argue that by yelling at the guy the first time, the biker "initiated" a dialogue. When the motorist "yelled" back at the biker, he was merely continuing on with their dialogue that the biker had initiated.
I hope that my comments are not construed as "taking up" for the guy in the car. He was in the wrong for getting into the biker's lane. I do hope, however, that I pointed out to how many wrongs the biker was guilty of himself even though he started out being the victim.
When or if this goes to court, who do you think is going to get the worst of this deal? The guy in the car might incur a fine but the biker could very well get jail time. Please do not think that just because its a slap, it is therefore not jail worthy. I know someone that lightly tapped his g/f on the mouth with a piece of paper and he went to jail over it. So before you think you have to hit someone hard before it can be considered an assault, that is not what happens in reality.
I agree with everyone that says you need to put your machismo on the back burner when you're carrying. I had a difficult time seeing around a bush a few weeks ago. When I pulled out, I noticed this truck rushing up behind me very quickly. I punched the gas to get out of his way as fast as I could but this did not prevent him from having to hit his brakes so that he wouldn't hit me. When we came to the next red light, I looked back and gave him an apologetic wave to say that I'm sorry. He angrily shook his head at me in response. I was trying to be as apologetic about the whole thing as I could. If I had wanted to be a jerk about it, I could have got into an argument with the guy given that he was driving way too fast for the road he was on. There was no way he was driving the speed limit. This does not, however, give me the right to pull out in front of someone. It was truly a mistake on my part because I wouldn't have pulled out in front of him if I had seen him. Sometimes you have to admit you're wrong. You don't always have to be right. The insistance in arguing his case with the biker, I believe, is a generational thing. When I was a kid, I didn't argue with my dad because I knew better. I learned to shut up and leave it alone. It appears that a lot of kids today have never been taught this lesson. I see a lot of young people mouthing off in defense of themselves in situations where they would be better off leaving it alone. Some people today seem to be completely oblivious to how dangerous it can be if you say the wrong thing to the wrong person. Especially be cautious of people you don't know.
When people are angry, explanations can easily make someone even angrier. Angry people don't want to hear excuses or explanations. They first want to hear the apology and then they might want to hear the explanation but they want to hear the apology first.
I don't know why the guy in the car was using a dash cam. I can see all sorts of legitimate reasons for using a dash cam but out of those reasons, I do like the idea of using it in case something happens...its a built in witness, if you will.
As far as sharing the road with people on bicycles, I see cyclists running lights and acting like the laws of the road don't apply to them but the first time a car doesn't recognize them they are the first to cry foul. Don't be a jerk and give bicycles the room they need but at the same time cyclists need to realize they aren't afforded special rights because they are on a bicycle.
July 31st, 2011 04:31 PM
Hey Rock: Understand what you have said but wouldn't it have been a lot easier (if you can) to just drive away? If you had not said anything in the first place, you would not have killed someone (in your scenario). Seems like there are plenty of things one can do, if CC, to avoid any confrontation that eliminates a firearm. There is no doubt in my mind that the shooter had better have very convincing evidence if the other rager is dead. This is far from cut and dry just because the "other half" of this story is dead. Don't forget about your eventual legal costs and very real civil damages where proof and evidence are not as strict. Bottom line--get the heck away from it and swallow your pride and manhood when you are CC--it will cost you in the end, literally and figuratively.
July 31st, 2011 05:46 PM
Being a long time rider, and ex-patch wearer, this incident among many was at a minimum a daily occurrence for me. Most common were the butt monkeys passing me on the right, when I am in the right lane, followed closely by changing lanes into me (I have removed my fair share of side mirrors for that one - they weren't using it anyways).
Any dedicated long time rider will be riding at a minimum of 5 seconds ahead of the game, and will know what the other cars around them are going to do before they do. They also will not be sporting a huge HD logo patch on their back (Screams "Weekend Warrior/Yuppie).
Me as the pedal bike rider - First not going to happen, I'm way too lazy. Second, no way in heck am I riding in traffic if I can not go at the same speed. I don't care if I have the right to do so, too risky.
Me as the car driver - I've seen the pedal bike rider, and saw and heard the Yuppie moments before. I will do what I need to do to slip around the pedal bike w/o risking anyone else. If the Yuppie gets cranky about it, I shrug, say I'm sorry, and don't crowd him when I have to get in behind him due to construction lane closure. READ - I'm leaving multiple car spaces between us, even at the stop light.
Me as the Motorcycle rider - I knew the car was going to slip around the pedal biker before he did, and will have either closed the gap to the car in front of me to get around the car in the right lane, or I will have backed off to allow the car in the right lane to drift over. If by some collection of unavoidable circumstances the car comes into my lane next to me excessively [3/4 into my lane, not just 1/4 as in the video], I'll be on the horn and yelling at the driver to pay attention while I am in the left edge of my lane and that will be the end of it.
In short, this entire event would not have happened to me, ergo I can not comment on what I would or would not have done as the car driver when the Yuppie got off his bike. All I watched was a couple minuets of stupid.
Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
See also Sheep
August 1st, 2011 12:00 PM
How about when the biker puts the kickstand down you roll up your window #1 and lock your doors #2. If he then decides to break my window to get to me, my 1911 will start barking and the castle doctrine will protect me.
Originally Posted by Unkind213
For me personally, I would have driven around him the second I saw the kickstand go down. I mean really, what idiot leaves his window down to argue with a "biker"?
August 1st, 2011 12:11 PM
Bicyclist failed to yield and the motorcyclist must have been riding the white car pretty close for this minor move to really have affected him in.
Driver of the car should have/could have slowed down and avoided it all in the first place.
There really is blame all the way around.
August 1st, 2011 12:30 PM
Of course it's easier and avoiding a confrontation is always the best solution in a situation like this. Remember the Oklahoma pharmacist who got the life sentence for shooting the teen aged robber. According to the news reports that I've read, the main evidence that convicted him were his own statements to the police and the store video of the incident. People who like to have everything on video need to understand that sometimes it works in your favor and sometimes it doesn't. That's my only point.
Originally Posted by kelcarry
We've become a society that has gotten so used to being on camera all the time...at the bank, the store, at work; that we do stuff without giving a second thought to the fact that we are recording potential evidence. I'm not paranoid but I tend to be camera shy.
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