Scenario: Child Snatcher - Page 2

Scenario: Child Snatcher

This is a discussion on Scenario: Child Snatcher within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Gene83 Dang I just accidentally impeded your progress with a shopping cart what with all the yelling and confusion going on. I'm ...

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Thread: Scenario: Child Snatcher

  1. #16
    Member Array Justified's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    Dang I just accidentally impeded your progress with a shopping cart what with all the yelling and confusion going on. I'm sorry. I hope you're OK. Wait a minute and I'll see if I can locate a manager for you. Is the little boy OK? Maybe we should call 9/11 just to be safe.
    Very PC response, I like it!
    • We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would harm us.
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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Even with today's heightened sense of awareness to the issue, one should never assume that something can't happen:

    Tashi Lance enters 'blind plea' in Target store abduction | ksdk.com
    -
    Auroran gets prison for child abduction attempt - Beacon News
    -
    Man Wanted for Sexual Molestation of Girl in... | Gather
    -
    Man is charged with abducting toddler from Montgomery store - The Washington Post


    And on the flip side of this issue:

    What Happens When You're Suspected of Abducting Your Own Child (VIDEO) | The Stir

    I think it looked like a man (father, relative, caregiver) dragging a kid playfully. (it's hard to read that without evoking negative imagery!)
    I'm not a parent, but in 45 years of caring for & being around other's children, that didn't look like a tantrum to me...
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array rammerjammer's Avatar
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    Protect your children yes, but to me much of this is an overreaction.

    Not being a parent, I read the OPs first post and thought more about being the single guy hurrying through a store and having some kid run into me. Most people in that situation aren't even remotely thinking about snatching up the child and taking off with them. They are thinking about the unattended child that just ran into them and frankly I would be ticked.

    Now if a parent comes up to just check on the situation politely and make sure we are both ok. Fine, move on and continue shopping.

    But anything confrontational from the parent is just plain overboard. It was their kid who caused the problem and they should be the most apologetic.
    mr.stuart and claude clay like this.
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  4. #19
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rammerjammer View Post
    Protect your children yes, but to me much of this is an overreaction.

    Not being a parent, I read the OPs first post and thought more about being the single guy hurrying through a store and having some kid run into me. Most people in that situation aren't even remotely thinking about snatching up the child and taking off with them. They are thinking about the unattended child that just ran into them and frankly I would be ticked.
    .
    Did you see the part about where the guy picked up a child that was not his? I would agree with your assessment if it were not for that one issue. No stranger should be picking up my child unless there is a darned good reason.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array Stubborn's Avatar
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    Pretty dangerous shooting CM at someone holding or running with your child. But I bet I'm good enough I could put enough lead in his legs he couldn't run, without endangering the child. BG is on the ground, child is safe and lead free. The only down side is, unless you hit the femoral artery, he may live to molest someone else's child.
    "The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it".
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adric22 View Post
    Did you see the part about where the guy picked up a child that was not his? I would agree with your assessment if it were not for that one issue. No stranger should be picking up my child unless there is a darned good reason.
    If the child is running down the aisles colliding with other shoppers, some people might consider that a darned good reason. I understand people being protective of their children but I've also watched parents stand by and let their little darlings wreck store displays, nearly knock other shoppers off their feet, and just generally create havoc. They make those shopping carts with the seats and the seat belts in them for a reason.
    mr.stuart and rammerjammer like this.
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  7. #22
    Member Array OperatorJ's Avatar
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    Let me add that now that I have had more time to think back on the situation, I do not feel my child was in harms way at all. I do not allow him to run freely, which is why he was close. He was recently told not to "run" in the store, and he was testing just where daddy draws the line - as all toddlers do. I am firm with my son, but not overbearing. The ONLY thing that set me in defense mode was the fact that he picked Logan up. Even then, it did not look as though he intended on going anywhere with him, he did not lift him to the hip-carrying position, only as he reached down to absorb the force of a 30lb child running into him did he pick him up a few inches off the ground.

    Limatunes said it very well, and there have been many other comments said as well. If a child ran into me and the parent/guardian was not around, I would take the child by the hand (not lifting him up for fear one of you guys would think I am walking off with your child and shoot first!), but to also still leave quick and easy access to my own PDW should I need it for whatever reason. Before releasing the child to any adult, I would confirm with the child that they know that adult. That part has been standard practice for me for years. It was the part about a stranger who didnt present lethal force immediately in the situation (but may later to my child), and me responding appropriately. Even after much thought and reading all of your comments, given the same situation in the future, if it comes to bear, I will gladly take my chances with the 12 to avoid either a life-altering or life-threatening situation for my son, daughter, and whichever our 3rd child ends up being.

  8. #23
    Member Array boatman's Avatar
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    How fast do you think someone can run carrying a 25lb child squirming around. You can't use your hands to help you run, so your speed would be nothing. I know that even trying to carry a 2 year old is difficult! So unless you are in really poor shape , were confined to a wheel chair etc, I think you could close the gap of an aisle, even at home depot, very quickly. And though I have had 2 very rambunctious boys, at 2,3,4, or 5, they should not be a whole home depot's aisle length away from you. Small convenience store aisle, ok, but you close that gap very quickly, and say, thanks for helping my child, sorry they ran into you and get your child back.

    Unless this was a planned snatch and grab, so your child would have to be away from you and right by the store entrance so the bg grabbed him and threw him into a waiting car...

    As far as drawing, unless you are really highly trained in these situations, do you really believe you will be able to hit the bg and not your child who he is holding, especially if he is running. And if you are running as well? You read all the time about trained officiers missing all shots at 25' due to the adrenaline, situation, etc. really happening. Maybe if you were an ex ranger/seal you have a chance.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array tubadude's Avatar
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    An old girlfriend of mine once told me how, when she was little, someone grabbed her by her backpack and tried to take her when she was with her father. Her father, a US Marshal, chased him down, and beat him to a pulp. Or so she claimed.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array MotorCityGun's Avatar
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    Here's my additional .02 on this topic, especially for you "old" geezers (like myself) who are 50+ yrs old. As an integral part of your SD, stay or get in shape. Frequent trips to the gun range just to aerate paper ain't gonna' get it if a situation, like the OP has described, requires that you sprint 25 to 50 yds, full out. In fact, next time you take that leisurely walk, try running full out for, say, 50 to 100 yds. Can you do it? If you can't, and you don't have any physical ailments to speak of (see below), start getting in shape to the point where you are able to, at least, run for 100 yds. I'm not saying you should be able to run a 10 second/100 yds or a marathon, but you should be able to move yourself (quickly) in the event a (fight, flight or pursue) situation necessitates a certain amount of running.

    BTW, for those of you with artificial knees, hips, arthritis, wheelchairs, walkers, etc., etc. No need to respond. For everyone else, I can't wait to hear all of your "excuses" for not getting in shape.
    Last edited by MotorCityGun; August 10th, 2011 at 04:24 PM.
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  11. #26
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    I do quite a bit of formal shoot house and low light shoot house training. Numerous times I've punched holes in the hostage/no-shoot, and that's even been when using an AR and an Aimpoint or IR laser, it's not nearly as easy as it sounds, even after numerous times as mistakes still happen.. Now, at that point we just call them collaborators/witnesses, but that's beside the point. ;) If someone was to try to take one of my children (my son will be 2 years on the 12th and my daughter is 6 1/2 years old) and it's happening in my view, you better believe I WILL do absolutely everything possible to catch him and what happens at that point will be determined by my state of mind. Last year we went for a walk around my Mother-In-Law's neighborhood. At a corner a couple streets over an older man was outside with his 4 or 5 dogs. My daughter ran up and was petting them. He seemed a little strange but I was right there, but still was uncomfortable. A couple days later I downloaded a sex offender locator on my iPhone and sure enough that scumbag was in there and showed his house. he had been charged with sexual battery of a child, which I believe was well under 10, and a few other very serious and violent sexual offenses. It took everything I had, and I mean everything, not to go back over there and have a "talk" with him. I still drive by that house at times and have a sudden urge to pay him a visit.

    While chasing someone in a grocery store or mall, for example, it won't be all that hard to catch up. Think about it… You're chasing someone carrying a kid. You're adrenaline and pure fear/hatred/desperation will give you that boost you need to catch up to the bad guy, in most cases. You'll most likely be screaming that someone just stole your child and I'd be willing to bet that he'll be releasing the kid to make his escape.

    I'm more concerned about the random care pulling up and snatching my kid. My Mother-In-Law had this happen a couple years ago with her small dog. She had her outside in the front of her home, in a very nice neighborhood, and the dog was maybe 30 feet away when a van pulled up opened the door and grabbed the dog, then sped off like a freakin' movie! She couldn't believe it and that was that, no plate number and really nothing she could do at that point. Imagine if that was your child in front of your home… I live in one of the nicer neighborhoods here in Corpus Christi (which means little as this is Corpus Christi) and in an area where you drive through for a reason, you don't just pass through. I'm still very cautious with my kids. My 6 year old is never allowed out front on her own, though I do allow her in the backyard as it's gated and very secured. Even then, I still keep a constant eye on her.When we're out front or go for a walk, I never let her more than a short distance from me if it's towards the street. I take absolutely no chances.

    This is another one of those situations where awareness and prior planning will go a long way. Of course no matter where we go a stranger will most likely talk to your children. I talk to kids in the checkout line at times myself. My daughter is pretty good about it though and understands to keep her distance, but she's still just a kid and can only understand so much. She listens though when I tell her to come closer to me and should I call her by her first and middle name, she knows that means I'm telling her to come to me right now, and she does.

    Should someone every grab my kid and run, I will chase after them and I will shoot them if I have to. Shooting them will be my first choice, I will not be negotiating. Either they drop my kid while running or they drop my kid while falling. Not that there would be any real chance of consequences unless you're in a very liberal state (and even then I doubt it) or there's more to the story. I can tell you that's about the last thing I'd be concerned about or even thinking about in that situation. I've been in two very serious life or death situations and both times I prevailed due to my aggression and will to fight and live. i could only imagine how amplified that would be if one of my children or wife were involved.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MotorCityGun View Post
    Here's my additional .02 on this topic, especially for you "old" geezers (like myself) who are 50+ yrs old. As an integral part of your SD, stay or get in shape. Frequent trips to the gun range just to aerate paper ain't gonna' get it if a situation, like the OP has described, requires that you sprint 25 to 50 yds, full out. In fact, next time you take that leisurely walk, try running full out for, say, 50 to 100 yds. Can you do it? If you can't, and you don't have any physical ailments to speak of (see below), start getting in shape to the point where you are able to, at least, run for 100 yds. I'm not saying you should be able to run a 10 second/100 yds or a marathon, but you should be able to move yourself (quickly) in the event a (fight, flight or pursue) situation necessitates a certain amount of running.

    BTW, for those of you with artificial knees, hips, arthritis, wheelchairs, walkers, etc., etc. No need to respond. For everyone else, I can't wait to hear all of your "excuses" for not getting in shape.
    I don't have an excuse for not getting in shape. I just bought a gun so I wouldn't have to.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    For a rambunctious under 8 y.o. who will run away from you, why not use a child harness and an extendable dog leash? It sounds a bit extreme but it's better than having your kid kidnapped.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array Tyler11B's Avatar
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    In KY you can pop someone for kidnapping all day long and not have a problem. In the situation the op gave and if the above tried to run off with my son and had no weapon, then I would proceed to chase the offender down and proceed to beat him until he was no longer a threat then roll him over while having a knee firmly in the back of his neck until police arrive. Shooting would be a last resort. Even though I practice alot and am confident in my skills, the pure emotion, rage, adrenaline, etc. would be hard to overcome and make a clean shot. Now if I knew that within a few seconds his life was on the line then I would take the shot. Either way whether it's a .40 to the head or a severe beating, no one is taking my son unless it's over my dead body. I wouldn't expect any less from any parent on here.
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  15. #30
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    I have a 2 1/2 y/o who knows no strangers. We are actively trying to teach him to stay next to mommy and daddy when in stores but it's a little like trying to heard cats at this point. He doesn't just accidentally run into strangers he walks up to them and taps them on the leg or just runs into them on purpose, etc. I scold him. I apologize to whomever. I have had people take him by the hand and look around and then let him go once they see me approaching.

    I have also taken hold of children while looking around to confirm a parents presence because I would want a kindly person to do that for me if my child wandered off.

    Maybe everyone else is a perfect parent or has perfect kids but I have a little Tasmanian Devil and keeping a perfect eye on him is... challenging. I do not fault parents who turn around to get something off the shelf and turn back to find their child half-way across the universe.

    That being said, in order to establish intent you MUST MUST MUST take a verbal approach first. You would never want to shoot or draw a gun on someone who was just try to help a lost child find his parent. Remember that until you identify yourself as the parent the stranger doesn't know you from Adam or that you even are the child's parent.

    I have even heard of some people refusing to give back a child until the child confirms the person asking for him/her is, indeed, Mommy or Daddy. As a parent, I greatly appreciate the people who stop and think and look out for the welfare of the child and confirm that the individual saying s/he is the parent really is. Remember, Jeffrey Dahmer once got one of his escaped victims back by claiming he was a run-away.

    That being said, if someone were to stop my running child in a store, pick him up and start walking away with him, I would run up to that person, identify myself as the parent and if he did not stop leaving with my child THEN we would have problems. It's one thing to stop and say, "Is this really your Mommy?" to the child and then give him back but if you have identified yourself as a parent and they are refusing to yield to that then there is a problem.

    As bark'n said, a kidnapping is a felony and in most cases (as long as you have the facts) you can use your firearm to stop it. But as it's been pointed out, bringing your firearm into a situation with your child in the midst MIGHT NOT be the best course of action.

    While at a recent training my husband was put to the test shooting at a hostage target while going through a shoot house. He managed to actually shoot the BG and miss the hostage but he was one of the few. MANY people who took the shot ended up hitting the hostage. Hostage shots are not as easy as the movies would make them look.

    All that being said... Yes! I would shoot someone fleeing with my child if I believed he would get away otherwise. I would rather risk injury to my child than possibly spend the rest of my life wondering what happened to him. BUT I would try EVERYTHING else first. Even if it was just jumping on his back, pepper spraying him, beating him with my cell phone or whatever. Bringing the firearm into the situation would come absolutely last and only after I was sure I was looking at losing my child vs a kindly citizen trying to help.
    Yep my girls are grown up now and thankfully for the most part they did behave in public. My 4 year old grandson is still a handfull in public. I would not be surprised if someone that was run into by a child placed there hand on the childs arm or shoulder to keep them from falling, or to slow them down. However I would be more concerned if the person actually picked up the child. That seems like going a little to far.
    In the situation as described I would close the distance quickly while yelling "he's mine, I'll take him". If the other person ask the child to confirm he knows me, I would be fine with that.

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