Crazed gunman or hungry double packer?
This is a discussion on Crazed gunman or hungry double packer? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I agree with Atctimmy. Start finding cover without actually covering just yet, and have my hand on my weapon. I carry IWB, about 4:30, so ...
August 11th, 2011 11:09 AM
I agree with Atctimmy. Start finding cover without actually covering just yet, and have my hand on my weapon. I carry IWB, about 4:30, so drawing is quite obvious for me, so I can't draw yet- make it look like I'm going for my wallet. Maybe stand up, like I'm grabbing/readjusting my wallet. If he still has a gun in hand, he meets a JHP .45ACP. Or 5.
Or, if I get the RLH feeling from him, the missus and myself (without running) make for the exit opposite him, like we were done eating and going home. Watching that weirdo the whole time out of the corner of my eye in case we need to run/start returning fire. I don't think that someone going into a place like that to rob it would bother with the people who are already out the other door- it takes too much time, and you can't watch the people inside with you while you're concentrating on trying to herd them back inside.
"Rock and load, lock and roll... what's it matter? FIRE!!"
"Gun control means hitting your target every time."
Please take everything I say with at least one
grain of salt- I am a very
sarcastic person with a very
dry sense of humor.
August 11th, 2011 01:25 PM
I'd tell the kids "I think Grandpa is here"
August 11th, 2011 01:38 PM
OK, I'll play
I'll play devils advocate here.
Obviously the guy just drove his car across the street from the court house where he just gave testimony against the leader of the local street gang. Hence the need to be unarmed and also the reason he felt the need to carry a backup. He was able to reholster one of his 1911's in the car, but the seat belt prevented him from holstering the other one. Of course he doesn't have enough mag carriers for the extra mag for the second gun, He only ordered a second holster and the mag holder that came with his first holster.
I would walk up to him and ask him about the nice exotic leather holster for his gun.
August 11th, 2011 01:46 PM
August 11th, 2011 04:01 PM
Code Orange, certainly. But I'm not drawing. Yet.
Some states where you may open carry without a permit do not allow you to do so within your vehicle, such as Wisconsin (until November). It's very possible the individual is merely conforming to the law: once he left the vehicle he loaded, locked and (probably) holstered. Where this supposition doesn't work is that he was already wearing one handgun. Oh well.
What is his demeanor? Angry? Sad? Indifferent? Looking around, "furtively?" Alertly?
Maybe he was legal and not comfortable sitting in his vehicle wearing the second weapon. Why was it unloaded? If he just bought ammo to add to his arsenal on his way to being an active shooter why did he load the mags but not the 1911 before reaching the restaurant?
One 1911 was loaded (probably) and holstered, one was unloaded and not holstered until he parked, in plain view in public. Your scenario is a mixture of unlikely coincidental actions.
August 11th, 2011 04:16 PM
1. Tell family to start gobbling their food.
2. Tell waitress immediately you need doggie bags to go.
3. Plan escape route to avoid paying tab.
4. Don't leave TIP!!!
Since this is all cyber hypothetical, I was hungry and wanted a cyber full meal deal.
August 11th, 2011 04:51 PM
You're SOL. You already paid for the food because its a fast food joint. This isn't a sit down restaurant, and you are the waitress. Server if you'd prefer...
Originally Posted by Dennis1209
August 11th, 2011 06:29 PM
I guess I must be gettin "cranky" in my old age, but somehow it irks me when total disrespect is shown to a person asking for a perfectly honest response to a scenario pertaining to situational awareness and self defense. I presume that most of us carry in order to be prepared for the unexpected. With that in mind, why wouldn't someone prepare (mindset and/or tactically) for a scenario that may seem far fetched until it goes down and you have no clue how you will react! Now that I've gotten that off my chest, my reply is as follows:
Situational Awareness (Definition): Situation awareness (SA) involves being aware of what is happening around you to understand how information, events, and your own actions will impact your goals and objectives, both now and in the near future.
I try to constantly run scenarios through my mind, in preparation of being more mentally alert (situational aware), and trying to predetermine my actions BEFORE the bad things happen. I personally would find it extremely odd to observe someone acting in the manner stated by the OP in his scenario. It would take me from YELLOW to RED in a heartbeat. No matter how ridiculous I might appear in my actions to those surrounding me, I would be making every effort to get my loved ones and myself to an exit, if no exit was available, then I would be directing my family to, hopefully cover, and if not cover, at a minimum, to concealment. I would direct my loved ones to call 911 IMMEDIATELY as we are moving. But, of utmost importance, I would be preparing to defend my loved ones and myself by any and all means at my disposal IF we were unable to exit the establishment. I'll leave it to others to "pooh pooh" the possibilities of something like this happening. I prefer to accept the fact that we live in a society that is becoming more dangerous each day, requiring my SA to be honed to the point that I will act in a manner to insure safety and not worry about how others perceive my actions. If one truly believes that bad things can happen ANYTIME and ANYWHERE to ANYONE, then why wouldn't you honestly consider this scenario. JMO
Sometimes in life you have to stand your ground. It's a hard lesson to learn and even most adults don't get it, but in the end only I can be responsible for my life. If faced with any type of adversity, only I can overcome it. Waiting for someone else to take responsibility is a long fruitless wait.
August 11th, 2011 08:41 PM
I agree, what's with the sudden hate toward scenarios?
This guy isn't normal... so I'm on red alert. Do I draw my pistol? No... but I do get my shirt out of the way so I have a clear draw if I need one. I don't need to say anything to my SO because she can read my behavior well enough to know there's something up. My eyes are on the door, and my ears are perked up. Either my SO or I have our phones out with 911 on the screen, thumb on the "call" button. If he walks in and orders food, we relax. If he orders the cashier to empty the till, the call goes out. If he starts waving the gun around or shooting, I draw and fire.
August 11th, 2011 09:01 PM
Posted by kelcarry:
Sir, I don't take offense at your response, but I would simply draw your attention to a few things; Like Luby's, Virginina Tech, Rep. Gabby Giffords, Norway (of all places) and a host of other places where unsuspecting people were victims while going about their everyday life activities.
I agree with ICT on "playing the scenario game". I do not know where you people live and what kind of lives you have and how you come up with these "scenarios" but "geeze louise". I guess it is always food for thought and there are enough replies that forum members took the time to read this and respond, but really? I apologize if my comments are interpreted as some kind of personal attack--they are not meant that way and I apologize if they are taken that way. Just find the scenario to be way down the line of probability and below lightning hits and shark attacks.
In my mind, it doesn't hurt to play the "what if" games and think thru viable courses of actions.
I for one, hope that you and none of the members of this forum ever have to face a real-life situation like this--just ask Bruce, a member of this forum who was washing his truck one day minding his own business when confronted by a BG with a knife and his two "buddies". My wife and I were minding our own business returning home from King Salmon fishing when we had our encounter with evil people--the old saying about anytime anywhere is absolutely true!!!
Last edited by Chaplain Scott; August 11th, 2011 at 09:03 PM.
Scott, US Army 1974-2004
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan
August 11th, 2011 09:17 PM
I still believe my initial post was the correct response. Keeping an eye on the guy, and being prepared to act is all that you need to do.
Nothing given in the scenario says BG in massive red letters. How many people here have posted how they were caught while CCing and people didn't overreact? Why are people assuming the worst when it sounds like the non-descript guy with an expensive set of hardware is going in to eat dinner? Just as you and your family are.
How many of us stop to eat fast food in even semi-questionable locations? We all talk about being aware, and reducing potential risks. Going along with that philosophy, I would do no more than follow the BSA motto, and be prepared to take action should my initial assessment be wrong.
August 11th, 2011 10:09 PM
I wouldn't worry until he puts on a pink tutu and bedazzled Tiara
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
August 12th, 2011 12:23 AM
Some may have missed my point. The OP describes a normal looking man with a holstered 1911, loading a second on his way into a fast food dump. There is nothing normal looking about that on any planet, so the scenario is flawed from the git-go.
I'm not a lawyer or a LEO, just a pantload with a computer.
August 12th, 2011 04:42 AM
Totally agree with this. In the comfort of our computer chairs, we can with our minds' eye step through the scenario. These scenarios vary. They may develop over some sequence in time or, OTOH, they may be some instant awareness of finding ourself in a worst-case.
Originally Posted by First Sgt
Mindset is primary to winning a scenario or real fight. These scenarios help me to train my mind, I think. I get alot out of posters' responses.
Again, I totally agree. Things may happen so that we can watch them develop or maybe they happen so that we are embarrassed by our response, lack thereof, or our lack of SA that resulted in being in harm's way. If we were perfect we could avoid bad situations. Since we're not, we have to train for them.
Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott
I get alot out of these scenarios and reading between the lines:
SFury admits dangerous situations but doesn't count this scenario as one. Not to hijack, but I was embarrassed by my letting myself into a bad position last night, and since then, I'm thinking of evading any situation that may put an unwelcome stranger at my back. That's a good thing.
Originally Posted by SFury
Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
-Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)
August 12th, 2011 07:42 AM
If you had been around some of the guys my family used to hunt with, you would understand why I take a cautious approach to other people with firearms. Those guys were wild game shooting happy. They did not follow the four basic safety rules all that well. It's amazing they never hurt anyone else in the decades my family hunted with them. Being around them as a kid, it allowed my Father to point out certain things and to raise my SA.
My brother never got that education. Thankfully, we stopped hunting with them shortly after I was old enough to start hunting. The new camp we joined was full of safety conscious hunters. They are better hunters, woodsmen, and people in general.
I've also put myself in some dumb places as a kid/young adult. Mostly because my friends and I didn't think everything all the way through. I've gotten wiser as I've gotten older. We are the sum of our experiences after all.
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