Thanks for the replies. I respectfully disagree that the scenario is flawed. I try to run scenarios through my head in the hopes that if I ever have to draw I may shave off a second of hesitation. So that's why I read these and do these. I'm not military or LEO, so I don't have training but I know my limits - I expect that civvies like me will experience an adrenaline "lock up" if things ever go south, so maybe these exercises will help reaction time. Maybe they won't help at all.
Originally Posted by ICTsnub
I modeled this scenario based on a lot of readings of "LEO encounters." A lot of people that OC take umbrage when they get second looks from LEO's, or when LEO's respond to a MWAG call, or when LEO's take a defensive posture. The facts from those encounters vary and I can come down on either point of view.
Here, the person may look "normal" to some very pro OC'ers (If you can carry 1, then all the better that you carry 2, and God Bless that you are putting your pockets to good use with those extra mags). Also, many carriers *assume* that if the person has a holter(s), he's probably an OC'er and not a fruitcake. Maybe.
Another person said that charging a pistol while walking across a parking is not normal (I agree). But last week something happened that I had to unload my weapon (It was concealed and it was not LEO related, and the facts are very boring so I'll spare you). Later, when I could load again, I stood outside my car in a parking lot, loaded and holstered, then got in my car and drove away. So, seeing a guy in a parking lot loading a weapon not in the wake of an LEO encounter wrapping up - all perfectly legal - is that normal or not?
Some scenarios put you in a situation where it's likely things are going south - e.g., three guys, they quietly fan out and one starts walking up to you and talking while the others try to get behind you....etc. Here, the guy is acting a bit unusual, perhaps even irresponsible, but objectively threatening? I'm not sure - Is every open carrier an objective threat? Or is it subjective?
As for me, I would think the guy is a fruitcake. I'd try to get loved one out of the potential line of fire and be prepared to draw (maybe hand under shirt and on the gun). If he comes in and orders chicken, things are probably fine. If he starts shooting, well, at least I have a shaved a second off my reaction time (I hope).
This is the only point at which you can use your gun. And I don't know if he just takes it out if you can shoot legally without saying something.
Originally Posted by livewire9880
I keep reading in all the posts about how you are going to draw and put one between the eyes, but read the stats on how well trained LEOs shoot in this situations at 10,15,20,25' feet. You read about how 6 shots fired , none or 1 hit. These guys train. Taking a deep breath and sighting at the range, and having your adrenaline at a higher rate than it has ever been in your life and shooting are 2 wildly different things. If the BG hasn't shot yet and you hit the kid in the back putting ketchup on the buns, or grandpa washing his hands in the bathroom, I hope you look good in orange.
Do I want to risk lives to prevent someone taking money from the till. No way. Now when lives come on the line...
Question for the LEOs on board, would the actions in this scenario be considered brandishing, or similar?
Originally Posted by PEF
Either to the back exit, hard cover or concealment.
Beyond that ,the situation is fluid.
But...stay in a location that allows the fight to come to you? No...
Quickly. Immediately. Secure in the understanding "It's not your fight."
If I have a chance to avoid getting into a gunfight by walking out the back door of the building, I'm gone.
I follow the school of thought of John Farnam - Nemo Curat.
27 May 11
From an LEO friend in WY:
"Several weeks ago, we had a shooting at a local movie theater.
An industrial-sized, young, violent, male offender was in the process of tuning-up his girlfriend (physically), as other patrons looked on.
A middle-aged man, who had been standing in line, stepped forward and commanded the offender to stop. The offender instantly turned on this person and started striking him with his fists.
According to witnesses, the man being beaten repeatedly told the offender to stop, with no results. At some point, he told the offender that he had a gun and that he would shoot if the offender did not stop. The offender told the victim that he would "... take your gun and shove it up your ass!"
The victim then produced an NAA Pistol (22LR) and fired two rounds into the offender at close range. Both struck him in the groin. It is not clear if the point of impact was inadvertent or intentional. Either way, it worked! The offender immediately stopped his attack and backed off.
The offender's wounds are not life-threatening, but he will likely suffer permanent disfigurement and disability!
Within a few days, our local prosecutor cleared the shooter of any wrongdoing. Civil litigation is possible, but none has been announced yet.
This is the 'Conservative West,' but there were still a number of angry letters written to local papers, calling for the immediate recall of the prosecutor! They referred to the shooting as 'vigilante justice' and continued with '... no one should be able to take the law into their own hands.' In other words, no one should ever be allowed to do anything!
The 'recall' demand never gained traction, and the case has since fallen off the radar.
Still, I never thought I would see such a response to a self-defense shooting like that 'here.'"
Comment: A tongue-in-cheek slogan we sometime use at DTI is the Latin " Nemo Curat." Literally translated into English, it comes out to "Nobody Cares."
The long version of the translation is, "Don't become a victim of unrealistic expectations."
Voluntarily involvement in any situation that has the potential of resulting in a lethal response on your part carries with it enormous risks. Of course, it's your call, but, no matter what happens, don't expect:
(1) To be thanked
(2) To be hailed as a "hero"
(3) That anyone, even friends and family, will "understand," and sympathized with, the desperate, life-threatening position in which you found yourself
In fact, don't be surprised when you're:
(1) Criticized, ridiculed, and denigrated in the media, and by others who weren't there.
(2) Indicted by an over-zealous prosecutor who hates guns and everyone who owns one.
(3) Sued by the shootee/decedent, or his "estate"/family, for "wrongful death," et al
John Farnam's Quips - 27May11.html - Nemo Curat? - Amazing!
The use of a firearm is AN option, not the best option...not the only option.
I would quietly inform whom ever I am with that I saw some one 'who could be pulling some ****.' This is how I speak and everyone I go out with knows that I never take this stuff lightly. I would instruct them to get out of my line and preferable get down. I would discreetly unholster if possible and observe. I try to sit near the back by and exit. If he came in normally and ordered his food, I would conceal as best I could while maintaining positive control and leave. If he came in belligerently I would assess to see if escape was possible for my party and do so. If this is not possible then I would intervene as a last resort.
I'd most certainly watch the guy, as well as let the wife know what might happen. It's time to make sure you have some kind of cover just in case. If I could do it without causing other problems, which is likely, since drawing also looks like I am getting my wallet, my gun would be covertly drawn and I would probably think that I should have brought the other magazine pouch with me.
SA says I should have already noted any alternate exits. That doesn't always happen, though, and in one of our favorite places, there isn't a second exit once you are seated. If the guy comes inside ready to rob, it is time to get out. As we move out, I hopefully would have enough presence of mind to pass the word on to others on our way out. The wife would be calling 911 as we move.