Flash Mobs

This is a discussion on Flash Mobs within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Several of the flash mob videos I have seen have more to do with looting and property damage than actually attacking people. Yes, there are ...

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  1. #31
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    Several of the flash mob videos I have seen have more to do with looting and property damage than actually attacking people. Yes, there are some out there where people have been hurt but from what I'm seeing personal injury is not the goal. Can it/does it happen? ABSOLUTELY! And there may be a time and place to start blasting your way out of it but a little caution and prudence should be in order if it hasn't escalated to that and a good head will probably get you out faster without adding any notches to your pistol either.

    While I understand the Suarez article, in it's brevity (to me) it concentrates more on fighting your way out and not THINKING your way out or being prepared to get out quickly and easily without bloodshed.

    I think this article by Greg Ellifritz seems a bit more thorough in explaining more dynamics involved in these situations: Mob Mentality.. Escaping from Riots and Flash Mobs

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  3. #32
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    And just what helps to make all of these well timed & coordinated Flash Mob crimes possible?

    Oh...of course...The free taxpayer funded cell phones PLUS 250 free monthly minutes given to low income households.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array TonyDTrigger's Avatar
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    It reminds me of the LA riots as I recently saw a video of it. The mob avoided a Korean store because the saw the armed employees and owners in the front and on the roof. Theirs was the only placed not sacked.

  5. #34
    Distinguished Member Array Hoganbeg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    So be it!
    None of us know the time we die. This could very well be the time, but do we just lay down to do it? I say NO. What say you?
    I never said or implied that one should just give up. What I said is you have to get to the spray before you can use it. If you're already at the car you are presumably going to drive away maybe taking a few attackers out along the way. I also said you don't know if one of the rioters has a gun. A perfectly logical statement. It implies that you need to fire and move, and keep your head on a swivel to ensure there are no undetected threats.
    Frankly I think having the pepper spray on my person sounds better all the time.

    As for what say I?
    I say Hell No!

  6. #35
    Member Array ace587's Avatar
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    makes me want to avoid big groups of people now
    Proudly living in the free state of Florida

  7. #36
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    If a "flash mob" ever envelopes me...i will be looking for a place to escape...if not possible I will not be the only one going down ...if you get my drift...

  8. #37
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    lima, while I agree with some of the things in Greg Ellifritz's article I think in ones training and thoughts of what ifs one needs to prepare for the worse. If one has only thought and run thru ones mind and prepared the plan of walking out and use sprays and that does not work, I see you falling short. That falling short is what can and will get you killed. That's why I try to train and plan for the worse I can think of, then let the situation set the level of force needed, but I am ready and prepared to go to the top if needed. Yes we need to plan, train, and carry for what we need from just walking away to having to fight for our lifes, any of it is possible.
    Last edited by Bill MO; August 16th, 2011 at 08:43 AM.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis1209 View Post
    What's the difference between a mob and gang and how would you know the difference, if there's one? By gang I mean Bulldogs, skin heads, MS-13, Bloods, Crips and the hundreds of other gangs out there. Retribution is certainly one thing to consider and how well is the gang / mob armed? I don't believe I would unholster and I would beat feet in the safest possible direction, unless and until me or we started getting battered. RUN FOREST RUN...
    The big difference between a flash mob and a gang is that gang members know each other by sight. People in a flash mob may or may not know each other. Somebody sends out a Tweet and everybody shows up. Consequently, it may be hard to tell who is part of the mob and who isn't.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    lima, while I agree with some of the things in Greg Ellifritz's article I think in ones training and thoughts of what ifs one needs to prepare for the worse. If one has only thought and run thru ones mind and prepared the plan of walking out and use sprays and that does not work, I see you falling short. That falling short is what can and will get you killed. That's why I try to train and plan for the worse I can think of, then let the situation set the level of force needed, but I am ready and prepared to go to the top if needed. Yes we need to plan, train, and carry for what we need from just walking away to having to fight for our lifes, any of it is possible.
    Hence this whole part of the article:

    If you are attacked and you don’t have any spray (or the spray doesn’t work), you must act decisively . Don’t get caught in the middle of two or more attackers. If possible, keep moving to the outside of the group of attackers to “stack” them, or line them up so you only have to fight one at a time. If you do get surrounded, violently attack one of the gang and either use him as a temporary shield or blast through him to make your escape. Don’t just blindly run away, you may be running into an area where there are more problems. Instead of running AWAY from the criminals, run TOWARD safety. And remember that “safety” in this case may not be the band of police in their riot gear with batons out and ready!

    Even if you are attacked by unarmed rioters, you still may be justified in using deadly force to protect yourself. Multiple attackers using their fists and feet can constitute a reasonable perception of the risk of “serious physical harm or death”. In that case, you may be justified in using your firearm or knife to protect yourself. The knife might actually be the better tactical choice as it is harder to take away from you, won’t miss or over penetrate and hit others in the crowd, and won’t cause even more chaos in the already panicked mass of people. If you do choose to use a firearm, be very careful. It’s easy to lose a gun in a crowd. Learn how to make an inconspicuous draw, conceal your weapon in hand, and shoot from the retention position. Also beware that the police may have posted snipers who could shoot you if they see you have a gun. As bad as it may sound, police often won’t differentiate between a criminal and a legally armed citizen trying to protect himself in a situation like this. Everyone who is in the riot is thought of as a criminal. “Criminals” shooting guns get shot by the police.
    Yes, I believe in preparing for the worst and being ready to fight my way out, lethally if need be, but in most of the mob/riot videos I have seen and read about that simply isn't necessary if you think and use other tools available to you... namely your feet and the nearest exit.

    Most of the articles I have read on the subject jump very quickly to "have a weapon and be willing to use it" kind of a thing... Okay.. well.. Yeah. I've been carrying a gun for years and been ready to use it. But there is a LOT more to getting out of a mob. It is almost an art form and you should have an idea of how to do it without just blasting your way out. You can't just run. Anyone who give you advice like "RUN" if you are caught in a mob has never been caught in one his/herself. There is no running. There is shouldering and weaving and moving from space to space or even moving with the mob while working your way to the side but just trying to run in a mob is going to get you trampled depending on the number of people and the agitation level.

    Most of these mobs are very anonymous and are not out for your blood. They don't know you or care about you. For all they know you could be "one of them." You pose no threat to them unless you interfere with their goals of looting or causing damage. Once it DOES turn towards personal injury then no one is safe.. not even the fellow mobsters and if you were smart you will probably be gone by then. If not, then do what you have to do.

    Honestly, in those kind of situations I believe the advice of a good pair of shoes, some pepper spray and a flashlight will get you out quickly and safely 99% of the time provided you were smart and got out as soon as you realized something wasn't right and you didn't stay to spectate.

    Am I discounting being armed? Absolutely not. And, for the third time, I DO believe that if it becomes necessary then do whatever you have to do.. including shooting or cutting your way out but it goes to the whole "if all you carry is a hammer everything starts to look like a nail" kind of a thing.

    If the only thing you have prepared for is shooting your way out it's not inconceivable to think that someone might draw their gun and start trying to fight their way out prematurely when they could have, instead, shouldered their way to a wall and inched along until they found an alley, etc, and gotten out without having to shoot anyone or starting an even bigger panic through gunfire.

    Yes! Be prepared to fight your way out. Be alert. Be ready. But don't just react and think that because you got caught up in a mob you need to draw and start blasting your way to freedom. It may come to that, but until it does there are other options.

  11. #40
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I agree with your post I think where I am off from you with my posts is that in my "minds eye" I have gone from just being able to walk off to having to fight your way out, to me if you can walk off then that's a no brainer.

    But as to this statement "Most of these mobs are very anonymous and are not out for your blood. They don't know you or care about you. For all they know you could be "one of them." You pose no threat to them unless you interfere with their goals of looting or causing damage. Once it DOES turn towards personal injury then no one is safe.. not even the fellow mobsters and if you were smart you will probably be gone by then. If not, then do what you have to do".

    I may be wrong but I think the WI State Fair one was attacks on white people. As to could they have been gone before it came to that. Don't know was not there and that would be something I don't think you find in any news article.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Something has come to mind after my last post. Thinking back on it and others that I have made, I see myself as being different than some or maybe ever most on the site.

    I train and prepare and try for a mindset of, if I'm ever faced with a situation where I may have to react it is with the thought of most violent reaction first, then letting "Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques".

    I start at the top and come down while I'm thinking others start low and work up. I see it as safer for me (and more likely I get to go home afterwards) to work down rather than up. A lower violent action than need wil get you killed while a higher than need will still keep you alive.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  13. #42
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Bill--higher than needed to start off with may be construed as overkill if---if and when the LEO's get things sorted out. photos reviewed and being a lone white face with a gun firing, may well put you where the others deserve to be--in jail. every situation will be created differently; it will grow differently; it will peak and dissipate. your interaction will change its dynamics. and this may be held against you later. though there will be a later, it may not play out in court as it seemed to at the moment.

    i don't go stupid places or do stupid things but they may come to me.
    what happens than will be interesting; perhaps for some--deadly.
    Be aware, be deliberate in your actions and be accurate.
    -------------------
    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Something has come to mind after my last post. Thinking back on it and others that I have made, I see myself as being different than some or maybe ever most on the site.

    I train and prepare and try for a mindset of, if I'm ever faced with a situation where I may have to react it is with the thought of most violent reaction first, then letting "Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques".

    I start at the top and come down while I'm thinking others start low and work up. I see it as safer for me (and more likely I get to go home afterwards) to work down rather than up. A lower violent action than need wil get you killed while a higher than need will still keep you alive.
    Bill,

    I'm going to throw something out and if it is way off, please tell me.

    I think that I understand where you are coming from, but I think that the statements in your post may be misunderstood and garner negative responses they do not deserve.

    As I read it, your thought, not action, is to the most violent reaction first, then following Roger's mantra in a downward progression to determine an actual level of force to employ. While this may differ from some/many who choose a bottom up progression to determine the appropriate level of force, both of you may decide on the same level of force as appropriate. The difference is the direction of the selection process follows, not the ultimate selection.

    I think that this variation of selection process may be misinterpreted as the actual employment of a higher force level, rather than merely an alternate selection process to determine an appropriate force level, that it is.

    Thoughts?
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #44
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    I've got to agree with Guantes here, Bill.

    It sounds as though you're going for overkill. "If I had a flamethrower in my backpack, I'd use that first and de-escalate to a long arm, a gun, a knife and pepper spray."

    It would be effective, you'd prolly never need to go lower than the flamethrower... But, you'd end up in jail at the least.
    And, I have read the Suarez take on it (short version= Beats being dead.)

    I'm of the "gray man" school... If I can slip out of the scene relatively unharmed (a few abrasions and bruises) I'm okay with that...

    As the mob develops, I'm studying the evolving action and preparing to get out from the outset. If you are reasonably aware of what is around you, you will see "tells" of the impending action before it occurs...

    All of the defensive action teachers have said that your mind is the primary self defense weapon, in one way or another.

    If you don't want to use your head, you have to learn the basics (we've all heard 'em): Stupid things, stupid places, stupid things. Follow them and you are most likely never to have an encounter at all.

    If, beyond that you find yourself in the middle of the fight anyway, and your training is simply in aggression to meet aggression, you may get out alive. You probably will, but most likely not unscathed, and also dependent on the benevolence of the legal gods to keep you out of life-altering trouble (jail time, civil suits, etc.).

    If on the other hand, you choose to use your cunning, there is a good chance you will get out alive and unscathed.

    In the end, you may need to use both. Neither brain, nor brawn alone guarantee your escape... a combination of both, and a complete willingness to use either, as circumstances dictate, most likely gives you a distinct advantage over the adversary, especially if the only driving force of the enemy is mob mentality.

    In any case, use everything you've got to get out safely. There are people who rely on you to do so...
    Old School likes this.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  16. #45
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    AAAhhhhhh this is how you hand flash mobs the Isreali way. Enjoy

    Israeli Special Forces - MISTARAVIM - YouTube
    Yeah that will do it !

    Shalom

    OS
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

    http://www.woundedwarriorproject.org/

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