Flash Mobs - Page 4

Flash Mobs

This is a discussion on Flash Mobs within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Yes Guantes thank you, it is my thoughts that are at the high and working down, but if action was to be needed coming down ...

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  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Yes Guantes thank you, it is my thoughts that are at the high and working down, but if action was to be needed coming down would have me above what was need to survive. While if you are come up and not reach the level needed you will fall short. I would rather be alive facing 12 than the other way around, for it is for the rest of time.

    And no I see no need for flamethrowers any where in my future.

    Like I have said I know in my head what I mean, but oh how hard the getting it on paper or web so it makes sense

    Just now come to me, what I'm meaning is my OODA loop from the start of the situation.

    Make sense?
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes


  2. #47
    Member Array jonesy_26's Avatar
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    Something I've noticed watching all these mob events evolving; there is a difference between the looting type rioting in London and the apparent race based violence in the mobs here in Philly, Chicago and the like. The events in London, while on a very large scale seem to have a skirmish line, a predictability to their location and movement, that unless you are in the middle of it when it erupts, you have a sense of where these folks are and potentially time to react, evade and get to safety. The attacks in Philly for example or the Wis state fair, have been much more random and very sudden acts of violence and race based. Getting blind-sided by a small, not particularly ominous group while walking down the street does not allow you to go through a mental evaluation process for threat response or try to "work" against attackers as described in the quoted section of the ellifritz article. Finding yourself trapped in your car or sitting on your motorcylce and being swarmed by thugs while stuck in traffic presents you with limited options.

    If I can see it coming and have time, I will escape to safety. If not, I will fight back the best I can with whatever tools I have and hope for the best. I can see the merit of the approach in the Suarez article. That's when you know you have to fight back...use extreme violence in hopes it drives them off.
    tcox4freedom and oakchas like this.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Yes Guantes thank you, it is my thoughts that are at the high and working down, but if action was to be needed coming down would have me above what was need to survive. While if you are come up and not reach the level needed you will fall short. I would rather be alive facing 12 than the other way around, for it is for the rest of time.

    And no I see no need for flamethrowers any where in my future.

    Like I have said I know in my head what I mean, but oh how hard the getting it on paper or web so it makes sense

    Just now come to me, what I'm meaning is my OODA loop from the start of the situation.

    Make sense?
    Thanks for the clarification.. I now understand what you meant.

    My OODA loop starts with "How can I avoid a developing situation..."

    By the time a situation develops, I can certainly see why your loop starts with "What level do I need to win this developed situation."

    Now, I'm not all knowing and all seeing... so don't ding me for that... But, I honestly think you can be aware of "anomalies" that can develop into dangerous circumstances before they actually become dangerous. And so, pre-emtively stay or get away timely.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #49
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Thanks for the clarification.. I now understand what you meant.

    My OODA loop starts with "How can I avoid a developing situation..." Yes mine start there also, but call me strange, if it never evolved into an event it was a non-event

    By the time a situation develops, I can certainly see why your loop starts with "What level do I need to win this developed situation." This is where I'm talking about, while you are watching this develope and you are coming to your level. Are you starting low and coming up or starting high and coming down? I'm coming down.

    Now, I'm not all knowing and all seeing... so don't ding me for that... But, I honestly think you can be aware of "anomalies" that can develop into dangerous circumstances before they actually become dangerous. And so, pre-emtively stay or get away timely.
    No harm done! Thanks for helping me clear my thoughts more. I hope
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Something has come to mind after my last post. Thinking back on it and others that I have made, I see myself as being different than some or maybe ever most on the site.

    I train and prepare and try for a mindset of, if I'm ever faced with a situation where I may have to react it is with the thought of most violent reaction first, then letting "Situations dictate strategies, strategies dictate tactics, and tactics dictate techniques".

    I start at the top and come down while I'm thinking others start low and work up. I see it as safer for me (and more likely I get to go home afterwards) to work down rather than up. A lower violent action than need wil get you killed while a higher than need will still keep you alive.
    I understand what you're saying. And I don't disagree.

    You are right in that if you try to act "from low to high" in linear progression with your thinking you might not be doing enough and not get out of the situation as fast and effectively as possible.

    Conversely, if you think about worst-case first and then "think down" to an appropriate level of forceful response (if any) and act on that you may act with a more appropriate level of force for the situation.

    Kind of like, "I see something developing. Is my life in danger? No. Okay, now what steps can I take to get out?"

    I guess what concerned me about this thread is that a LOT of posts were jumping immediately to the response of, "Well, I'd blast my way out."

    That's fine if it's what you NEED to do to get out but not many people reasonably know how to get out of a mob or riot wherein their life is not being threatened. When new people/carriers come to a thread like this and read it and the majority of the responses they see are "shoot this guy, hold that guy as hostage and shoot anyone else who interferes with my exit" they may wrongly assume that is what is necessary in all mob/riot situations.

    And, yes, there are different types of flash mobs and riots. Some are violent and some are not. I don't think for a second that if anyone of us were blind-sided by a violent mob we would sit there and think, "Okay, should I wet my bandana and put it over my face to protect from tear gas?"

    I have only been in one life-threatening altercation and it was long before I was even able to legally carry and the advice I received later on life-or-death situations rang true with my own experience: If you are truly in a life-or-death situation you don't have to stop and think "is my life in danger?" YOU WILL KNOW. The question is not whether or not you will know your life is in danger but whether or not you will know in time to do anything about it and that is where SA comes into play.. so that we might avoid potentially life-threatening situations. But once they come to us and blind-side us you aren't going to have to do much thinking on the matter and this is when you need the training and skills and will to save your own life. But if you are asking, "Is this a life-threatening situation?" Chances are it's probably not. It might develop into one if you don't act quickly and take steps to avoid but if you can ask yourself that question then your life is probably not in imminent danger.

    As I said, if I'm sitting in my car in traffic and 5-6 "ethnically different" individuals pounce out from the sidelines, take a tire-iron to my windows and start reaching in for me I'm not going to sit there and have a deep discussion to myself as to whether this is an avoidable situation and if pepper spray is a good option vs honking my horn and making sure my doors are locked. My life is in danger.. I'm going to respond accordingly.

    But... if 20 teenagers come into the convenience store I'm shopping at and start taking candy bars and ice cream or 30 kids start breaking shop windows in a mall I'm shopping at or a drunken brawl causes a panic at a packed concert or sporting event I'm attending.. if my life is not in danger and after I establish that my life is not in imminent danger I should have the knowledge, ability and calm mind to escape without having to blast my way through them.

    Some people don't have that and they need a better explanation on how to get out of these situations than, "Have a gun and be willing to use it."

  6. #51
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    lima I see your point, when I do post my comments are from where I see myself in the situation, which is above where lots and maybe even most of those here are. With that I'm not saying I think I am a great gunsman, because I'm not. I have posted somewhere on here that I would not make a good instructor because I have trouble bring myself back to the level of someone just starting. So maybe I need to hold back on what I post for that reason. I'll get it some thought.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kahnkem View Post
    Well I would try to avoid the situation, but that is impossible seeing as a flash mob happens just like that, in a flash. If I felt my wife or myself were in GRAVE danger I would draw, and if that doesn't stop the attack I would use my weapon then and only then after the threat didn't work. Remember if it is ME or HIM going home safe it is going to be me 100% of the time!
    Matthew
    Cool. I never heard of a gun with that guarantee. Where can I buy one?

  8. #53
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    Run like hell - shoot the first one that gets to close to you if he is a threat- repeat as long as needed or as long as you can!
    Great privilege comes with great responsibility.

  9. #54
    Ex Member Array MadMac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay View Post
    I likely will grab a skinny long haired active participant and as i am closing my grip on his hair i am going to fire one round into another participant's belly next to him and than hold his head back and stuff the gun in his mouth.
    I have the creepy sensation you were actually excited while writing this.

    So, your training and preparation assumes you'll be up against some skinny hippie(s), and you'll be roping some dude around by his hair.

    Examine some of the footage from recent flash mobs and the riots and London, and let me know if you think you may need to tweak your planning process.

  10. #55
    Senior Member Array Hot Wing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Old Anglo View Post
    What would you do if confronted by a "Flash Mob" like what happened in Philly and Wisconsin. Would you use lethal force to defend yourself and your loved ones?. I would,what`s your take on this up and coming subject. it`l be everywhere shortly.
    Seeing one of the victims on fox last night philly I would start with blade first

  11. #56
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    Again, this comes back to failing to recognize that your standing in the middle of a lethal force situation.

    As Suarez says, If you see a mob developing two blocks away... It's time to get the hell out of Dodge! Just drop what you are doing and leave. No need to stand around and wait to see what develops. You can go home and turn on the local news and find out what happened later.

    If you find yourself in the midst of the situation, and an angry mob is slinging racial epitaphs at you and the look in their eyes is rage. Then you are in the middle of a deadly mob. Especially if a couple of them have bandanas over their faces or if one or two of them are brandishing weapons. Recognize it for what it is. You know damn well what a flash mob is going to do. You know damn well you are overwhelmed by force of numbers. Quite trying to deny what it is.

    Pull your gun out and tell them to BACK OFF. If one of them advances, shoot him and anyone standing next to him, then hightail it out of there. Don't stand around to wait and see if someone in the crowd is going to return fire. Don't stand there and see what their reaction is going to be. Get the hell out of Dodge. Don't stand there and afford them the opportunity to regroup, assess the situation or regain some courage.

    Get to a safe location. Preferably, your car, or a nearby business (which is out of sight from the mob) and call the police.

    Hopefully you have the forethought to be a person who carries a hi-capacity firearm with one or two spare reloads. That affords you a lot more firepower than those of us here who feel a 5 shot snubby and no reloads are more than enough to get them out of any situation imaginable!

    Maybe that 5 shot snubby will be enough, but if you find yourself needing to engage 8 or 9 members of the mob in order to get their attention, and show you mean business, you may find yourself on the short end of the stick.

    More than likely, you start blasting... They will scatter and quit advancing. No one wants to be the next one to step up and get shot, once you've shown them that's exactly what you are going to do.

    The problem lies when you send them mixed signals. You stand around putzing around and not sure if you are going to shoot or not, they will call your bluff. Then they may rush you in large numbers and you are screwed. Tell them once or twice to BACK OFF, and then if any of them start to advance, you better get to work and pull the trigger.

    All this other minutia people are bantering around here is what gets your head caved in, shot or stomped into oblivion. Well I don't know... maybe if I do this. Or, I don't want them to tell the cops that... That crap will get you killed and your wife gang raped.
    tcox4freedom and Tzadik like this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadMac View Post
    I have the creepy sensation you were actually excited while writing this.

    So, your training and preparation assumes you'll be up against some skinny hippie(s), and you'll be roping some dude around by his hair.

    Examine some of the footage from recent flash mobs and the riots and London, and let me know if you think you may need to tweak your planning process.
    MadMac.....creepy wrong. I never said hippies; perhaps your linkage to the Dead grabbed that association for you. i had typed ‘corn-rolls’ but in an effort not to sound overly racial i left it at ‘long haired'. I picked skinny cause id rather have any weight difference be in my favor.

    this is what i mean by 'i will give a BG every chance he will allow me to, to go away--the very last thing i want
    to do is shoot someone but i am prepared to do it as the 1st thing if that is what is necessary.'


    This reposted from the 6” knives scenario to show you that i do not go to the wall at the 1st indication of trouble. But i will if necessary.
    --->perhaps this will help you chill:

    ...my uncle grabbed the gold

    I love my uncle, God rest his soul
    Taught me good, Lord, taught me all i know

    Taught me so well, i grabbed that gold
    And left his dead ass there by the side of the road. J. Phillips

    is not a man who kills his uncle for the gold not someone you like?
    Arthritis sucks big-big
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    Why do those elected to positions of power than work so hard
    to deny those same opportunities to the same people who empowered them

  13. #58
    mel
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  14. #59
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    Bark`n, You`re Right on the Money with your Post. Kudo`s!. An AMEN from me.

  15. #60
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    The problem is, we all want to avoid shooting someone unless it's an absolute last resort. We all fear having to do that to such a point, that we often find ourselves in a state of denial to what is actually happening when we suddenly find ourselves in the middle of a lethal confrontation.

    Then, when we finally realize we are smack dab in the middle of it, we still try to avoid shooting someone by him-hawing around trying to negotiate, when deep down inside you know that's not going to work.

    Well, I hate to break it to you. The evidence is in! We have all seen first hand video accounts of flash mobs seriously injuring and crippling people on the local news. We know people have been beat down so severely they remain on life support or in a coma today from incidents that happened months ago.

    Just this past week in Kansas City, three people were shot in the midst of a mob situation and the security detail of the new mayor had to throw him to the ground and draw their guns to protect him when he happened to be in the immediate vicinity giving a speech on mob violence. How's that for irony?

    Thanks to the local and national news reports, we have this knowledge going in to a situation. We also know that it is cropping up everywhere and really confounding local authorities. Local cities are now starting to imposing curfews. Philadelphia & Kansas City for sure, and I believe Detroit, Chicago and Wash. D.C. are also considering them.

    So, if by some twist of fate you find yourself in the midst of such an incident, it does you no good to deny what you are in. What you are, are in the middle of a grave and deadly situation, so you better treat it like one! If you have the ability to escape, Do So! But if the mob already have their sights on you and getting closer, you are going to have to deal with it. And in my opinion, it's better to act like a lion than it is to try and act like a gazelle.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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