Standing in line at CVS

This is a discussion on Standing in line at CVS within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I don't know, but I've always felt that I would never give someone the chance to show me if they're serious about using that gun ...

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Thread: Standing in line at CVS

  1. #46
    Member Array etinetalmai's Avatar
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    I don't know, but I've always felt that I would never give someone the chance to show me if they're serious about using that gun or not. I mean, whats gonna happen when the tables are turned on them? "Awww mannnn, you thought I was really gonna shoot you?! Come on dude, I was just messing around with youuuuu!"

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  3. #47
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    If the guy truly is paying no attention to me at all while I'm standing right behind him, then the answer is clear. I draw very quietly, place the muzzle of the gun about 2 inches from the back of his skull, pointing slightly upwards, and pull the trigger. He'll never know what hit him and will not be able to shoot the cashier or return fire on me. Due to the angle of my aim, if the bullet exits his skull, hopefully the only thing the cashier would get is some blood and brains on them.

    Now.. if I'm standing 5 feet away, I'm not going to attempt to walk up to him and do that. He'd probably see me in his peripheral vision and turn around and shoot me. I'd have to make a decision whether I want to retreat to the back of the store and wait for him to leave, or would I want to find some cover and try to take the shot from there.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  4. #48
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Wouldn't he hear you rack the slide?
    Harryball and MotorCityGun like this.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  5. #49
    Member Array etinetalmai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    Wouldn't he hear you rack the slide?
    Not if you always carry with one in the chamber like I do. Only thing he'll hear is the bang.

  6. #50
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    Wouldn't he hear you rack the slide?
    The intial gunshot would probably mask the sound of the slide racking to be followed by the sound of the second.

    I'm not sure he'd even notice the slide racking.

  7. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by etinetalmai View Post
    I agree that you should always assess the situation first, but I can't imagine anyone returning a cap gun like this:

    "well you know, this cap gun just didn't work the way I wanted it to! I'd like to return it!"
    Ah. But the picture there is not what you describe in your scenario. The image above depicts a person engaged in an apparent robbery, and a cashier in a defensive posture. That's not in your original scenario [some comments in brackets]:

    You're standing in line at CVS and there is a lady paying at the register, a gentleman behind her and then you.
    As the lady finishes paying and leaves, you see the gentleman walk up to the cashier like any average customer. [like an average customer -> normal posture]
    You move ahead continuing the flow of the line when the gentleman pulls out a handgun and points it at the cashiers face [STOP - freeze in time - there's nothing in the scenario about the man taking an aggressive stance, yelling demands, or the cashier's reaction. All I see in my mind's eye is a cashier at the instant a man pulls out a gun that may or may not be fake. There is not description of a reaction from her or yelling or gesturing on his part]

    You don't know if it's real or fake.
    You don't know what he wants or if he's going to shoot.
    You have a split second to decide whether to draw your weapon and shoot or not.
    The only person in imminent danger is the cashier and you are standing about 5 ft away from the BG with a clear line of sight.

    These scenrios are interesting in that some may read facts into them. But from the cold facts of the original scenario, which I must go by, I can't shoot...

  8. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by tokerblue View Post
    I would hope you could tell the difference between a cap gun and a real gun. If you have any doubt, it could be the last mistake you make. If someone wants to pull that kind of prank, that's on them.

    This kind of story makes my decision easy.
    4 People Killed In Shooting At Haven Drugs Pharmacy In Medford CBS New York
    Just sticking to the scenario facts - I don't know if it is real or not. Also, may not be a prank, given the limited set of facts. Could be some guy that thinks anyone would know it's a cap gun, he lost the box, and wants to return it. There's nothing in the facts of the woman being frightened, the guy starting to yell, etc.

    I think the scenario, based only on the initial facts, is quite interesting because it presents a set of facts - to me - in which the the presence of a threat is initially indeterminate.

    Base ONLY on the facts of the scenario, and nothing else, if you immediately draw and shoot you might be a hero, or you might be fighting for your freedom and explaining why you killed an innocent person (or, more likely, keeping your mouth shut and having your lawyers try to explain why the state failed to prove a case of murder).

  9. #53
    VIP Member Array tokerblue's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PEF View Post
    Just sticking to the scenario facts - I don't know if it is real or not. Also, may not be a prank, given the limited set of facts. Could be some guy that thinks anyone would know it's a cap gun, he lost the box, and wants to return it. There's nothing in the facts of the woman being frightened, the guy starting to yell, etc.
    - So what happens when the gunman scans around and decides to point his gun elsewhere? It's not an unlikely scenario and then you're in the position to DATD. In this day and age with all of the shootings we've had, it would be extremely stupid to pull a prank like this. Like I said before, it's on them.

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    If it's real, he's commiting a violent felony.
    If it's fake he's beyond stupid and commiting a violent felony.
    Life's too precious to risk a judgement call on wether it's fake or not.
    Before you say anything about the BG's life being too precious, his actions have already
    convinced me that the cashier's life, my life and anbody else in that store is more precious.

    Having just recently had a BG pointing a gun at me and my co-workers, I can tell you that
    there is NO WAY to tell if he's going to shoot or not until he has made up his mind to do so or not.
    In my case he didn't. Was it because his gun was fake? Was because it was real, but unloaded?
    Was it because he just didn't want to commit THAT big of a felony? Is it because his gun jammed.
    Is it for the same reason that I didn't shoot him, because I had the damn thumb safety engaged?

    To even think that these questions are something to ask is to not look at the reality of the consequences.
    Innocent lives are quite likely in danger. Treat the situation as such. Bug out if you wish, but don't
    hesitate because of the hypothetical.

    BTW the only person in eminent danger is NOT just the cashier, it's anybody within range of the gun he's brandishing.
    and pointing a gun in someone's face is definately an "agressive stance" in my book.

  11. #55
    Ex Member Array Doodle's Avatar
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    Hmm lots of people see it my way some have a wait and see attitude. Can you be charged with not intervening when someone's life is in danger and then is taken? Could it be negligent homicide if you wait to shoot five seconds too long?

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array zonker1986's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9Buck View Post
    Move out of Miami!
    You live in Orlando, and you're telling him to move out of Miami? BWAHHHHHAAAAHAAAAA!!!
    Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I never go to CVS after 9pm without at least two .45's and a pistol grip Mossberg 12 ga under my coat (joking). What did we have in Orlando a couple of years ago.....like 120 drug store armed robberies?

    Wait for the right moment and drop the guy. If you live in Florida, you won't be charged if intervening in a felony in progress where lives are in imminent threat of being killed or injured.
    Just plan your shot so that he doesn't shoot the clerk in the process.
    Kimbers are the guns you show your friends....Glocks are the ones you show your enemies.

  13. #57
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    Wouldn't he hear you rack the slide?
    I see what you did there...

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzadik View Post
    If it's fake he's beyond stupid and commiting a violent felony....
    We must stick to the scenario facts. If it were fake, what felony is being convicted based only on the facts? Robbery? Nope - no demand for money, etc., in the facts. Assault? Maybe, but I can't tell from the facts *of the scenario as given*.

    To me, the fact of "you don't know if it is fake or not" coupled with the dearth of other contextual facts seems that the scenario was designed to elicit responses as to how to assess to determine whether to use lethal force to protect yourself.

    Heck, even from the facts, I don't know how the guy is pointing the gun - is his arm outstretched? Is his hand by his stomach and the gun is pointing up? What's the cashier's reaction? Does the guy become agitated? None of this is in the scenario.


    My *only* point is that I cannot determine, from the original scenario facts alone, if there is a danger. Hence I would need to assess before drawing and shooting.

    On a related note, I'm glad nothing happened to you and your co-workers....

  15. #59
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    Hmm lots of people see it my way some have a wait and see attitude. Can you be charged with not intervening when someone's life is in danger and then is taken? Could it be negligent homicide if you wait to shoot five seconds too long?
    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer nor am I familiar with the various laws in all 50 states

    I do not belive that anybody is obligated by law to protect another, but you will have to live with your own decision for the rest of your life.
    I'm not sure I could if I didn't try to intervene and someone was hurt or killed.

  16. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doodle View Post
    Hmm lots of people see it my way some have a wait and see attitude. Can you be charged with not intervening when someone's life is in danger and then is taken? Could it be negligent homicide if you wait to shoot five seconds too long?
    For this scenario, no.

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