This is a discussion on Standing in line at CVS within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; well on that we can agree...
well on that we can agree
Teenage 'YouTube pranksters' use toy gun on shop attendents: policeIt's in front of the security cameras they show the forcible felony taking place in front of me, my actions are vindicated I'm released in under an hour, and the death of an armed robber is a footnote or a 3min story about how dangerous toy guns can be if not coupled to common sense.I think the scenario, based only on the initial facts, is quite interesting because it presents a set of facts - to me - in which the the presence of a threat is initially indeterminate.
Base ONLY on the facts of the scenario, and nothing else, if you immediately draw and shoot you might be a hero, or you might be fighting for your freedom and explaining why you killed an innocent person (or, more likely, keeping your mouth shut and having your lawyers try to explain why the state failed to prove a case of murder).
Based only on the facts if it looks real to me and it is plausible that it looks real to a jury then the law is on my side.
And the consequence for getting that wrong is far more grave, this man almost died thinking the massacre in Norway was a toy gun.'Thought it was a joke, someone sounding off toy gun' - The Times of IndiaHe had just finished making a video with former PM Gro Harlem Brundtland when the shooting started. From inside a bathroom, he heard the "pop, pop" of a handgun from outside and "thought it was a joke, a toy gun someone sounding off a fake gun" . He said that he was convinced that "someone was making a joke in incredibly bad taste" and stormed out "with the intent of halting it."
Someone walks in with a cap gun with the tip painted black from 5 feet I'm probably not going to be able to tell if it's real or not without looking down the barrel itself, which by that point is probably too late; but I have a head on my shoulders and I can tell a green super soaker or yellow nerf gun from a glock. Sure the family will cry to the press about how the guy in front of me was such a good person, just like they did with the armed robber that used a real gun at McDonalds and shot at a retired police officer.
And the advice from the police if you're planning this fake gun game.Kids with toy guns spark panic in Albany | Local & Regional News | KVAL CBS 13 - News, Weather and Sports - Eugene, ORThe lesson: don't play games like this one in a public place.
And while CVS is private property it is a public place.
Would you shoot if it was real but a high point so it'll just jam anyways?
Glock Certified Armorer
It's in front of the security cameras they show the forcible felony taking place in front of me, my actions are vindicated I'm released in under an hour, and the death of an armed robber is a footnote or a 3min story about how dangerous toy guns can be if not coupled to common sense.
Again depending upon state laws that video also would show you killing a man who was not a threat to you who was armed with a toy gun. The 3 minute story would be simply to advertise the 1 hour special on the life of the poor, unemployed man with 6 kids to feed who realizing he may hurt someone with a real gun was just trying to survive when gunned down, shot in the back ending his life before he could donate the money he stole to the church.
You might get your first phone call in an hour or so but that would be it. The rest of the time would be spent booking you into the local jail.
It has already been stated to shoot or not to shoot is a decision you yourself would have to make based on what you believe to be right. Your own state laws should give guidance in this situation. Just remember today's criminal is tommorows victim in the eyes of the media. You may be a hero at the moment but as soon as the grieving widow shows up on the news and some caped crusader shows up with a pocket full of cash you may not be so popular anymore.
For those of you that do not carry a round in the chamber you are pretty well screwed.
Just an opinion
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
I figure if there's no personal threat, and you CAN back away, get out of the line of fire, and/or get out of the store, it's always a better option than _inserting yourself_ into the situation.
Be prepared to spend the next 5 years of your life dealing with aftermath. Now, it may be a cut and dried thing you MAY be lauded as a hero, but out of the myriad of possible outcomes, good shoot, bad shoot, collateral damage, getting shot when the BG wheels around and someone behind you bumps you just as you were about to pull the trigger...
Also, a HG in your pocket, you'd THINK you couldn't miss at 5 feet but LEOs and guys with training DO miss. The ODOA loop is slower to finish with an action than you'd think. Talking, ordering someone to do something, that's what you DON'T want to do. You become the target...and you don't know the clerk from Adam.
First rule of gunfighting - get distance and seek cover.
First rule of defensive carry is to follow rule one above and be a good witness, be prepared if the threat is directed AT you, and call 911.
There's a reason we are not here to defend strangers - it's because whatever the details, we don't know them.
Just like tacman605 said "depending upon state laws"...in Florida aim a gun in anybody's face and you'll be lucky if you survive.
Why?? Because at the last second, the Police are minutes away.
And even if you shoot the BG in the base of his skull, pointing upwards, like was suggested in a previous thread, the bullet could hit something and come out the front of his face and then hit the clerk too. I am not an LEO, and I am not Charles Bronson in a Deathwish movie. While the law may allow me to stop an armed felony, it isn't my duty to do so.Be prepared to spend the next 5 years of your life dealing with aftermath. Now, it may be a cut and dried thing you MAY be lauded as a hero, but out of the myriad of possible outcomes, good shoot, bad shoot, collateral damage, getting shot when the BG wheels around and someone behind you bumps you just as you were about to pull the trigger...True. I'm sorry, but the store's money or even the clerk's life is NOT worth mine and that includes a chance of rotting in a cell for trying to be a good samaritan.Also, a HG in your pocket, you'd THINK you couldn't miss at 5 feet but LEOs and guys with training DO miss. The ODOA loop is slower to finish with an action than you'd think. Talking, ordering someone to do something, that's what you DON'T want to do. You become the target...and you don't know the clerk from Adam.Protecting myself and my family is my first responsibility. Engaging the BG is unlikely to be inline with this directive. If, the BG points his weapon at me, toy or not, that is a different story as I am now in direct and immediate danger.First rule of gunfighting - get distance and seek cover.
First rule of defensive carry is to follow rule one above and be a good witness, be prepared if the threat is directed AT you, and call 911.And there are many cases where the details have been critical.There's a reason we are not here to defend strangers - it's because whatever the details, we don't know them.
Finally a slew of replies that recognize the fact that if you are CC, it is to protect yourself and your loved ones---it is not to be a police officer or a crime fighter. I think we all agree, in a perfect world, we would love to think we could stop any and all crime around us and be right and be a hero 100% of the time, but there is no perfect world and what you think is happening at that minute of decision can be wrong and what you do can have consequences that can be very wrong. As I said before--in SC we have the alter ego rule which allows me to put myself in the shoes of the cashier and then consider myself being in imminent danger--the trouble with the rule is that in many cases you have no idea what is truly going on because you are NOT in their shoes and you can make a very big mistake. Heck we have threads all the time talking about wrongful police actions and they are supposedly trained to deal with situations, yet after the fact investigatiions put the onus on them and the towns they work for--do you really think you are better trained than an LEO to deal with a situation that does not involve you?
next to me I'd be all for letting him deal with it.
And to quote your first sentence "...it is to protect yourself and your loved ones.." I tend to love all honest people and let people keep the adjective 'honest'
until they prove otherwise.
To me, the situation where everyone will be glad that you were there and had a HG will be a completely clear situation where there was no choice, no getting away, you are a sympathetic 'victim' who was, fortunately able to deploy a tool (*) and save everyone.
Some examples might be the classic McDonald's situation where the crazed gunman is going around, solo, trying to execute people (the woman left her HG in the car to abide by the current law and her parents were killed in front of her). Nobody is going to question that.
However, the "tool" doesn't necessarily have to be your HG. It could be a cell phone, but backed up by your HG. To me that HG is really a backup tool to be deployed in the GRAVEST EXTREME ($1 to Massad Ayoob). Your SA, your feet - getting the hell out of Dodge, your avoidance are the best 'tools' in your arsenal.
So rather than think 'a situation was going down, I could have stopped it and I was helpless, frustrated, watched people die', you do the BEST that you can and that may be a point on the violence continuum somewhere between running away and letting others deal to actually executing the perp in a clear good-shoot. However, as a defensive carrier you CAN act, you have a backup for personal and love one protection, so never think you were a coward or failed in your responsibility to society or your loved ones. Though WE are not responsible to strangers, we can do things, we can DECIDE to fight or not. An unarmed, untrained, inexperienced fighter can not decide - they have NO choice.
In addition, as we all know, having a deadly weapon does not make you a 'fighter'. There's a lot more to fighting with a tool, be it a handgun, an opportunistic weapon, your wits than just having 'the power' in your holster.
One incident that is always fun to imagine - a woman, who had a revolver in the drawer near her window was walking through her living room and spied a guy climbing in the window. Without thinking she grabbed a nearby lamp which was in the perfect position and cracked the SOB in the head with it. He fell out of the window and bleeding, was picked up by the cops. She acted, the guy was caught and she didn't waste time fumbling in the drawer trying to get the gun and maybe giving him time to get in the window. We ALL need to realize that having a HG is sometimes a barrier to doing the right thing.
Another example is on Crafty Dog Marc Denny's Die Less Often video. A LEO taking the class trying to react to the BG strolling by with his knife and deploying and rushing him was instructed, after the first time he was "killed", that he needed to make space and angle off before he should be accessing his weapon. Doing that without space and time, he became a one-handed, off balance, easy kill. After about 8 tries he STILL could not overcome (under stress) the habit to go for the gun.
My concern would be a nerve reaction of his trigger finger if he was shot, even in the head, so my primary concern would be for the cashier.
I would probably try to melt away and go from there until I had a plan and observe until things unfolded to a point of appropriate action.
Even though I believe anyone would be in their right to shoot this perp, it may not be the best thing to do at this particular time.
" Blessed is that man, who when facing death, thinks only of his front sight"
So for all the people that would shoot on the spot in line... What if you miss or your shot fails to take him down and he turns and starts shooting at you and everyone around you? Are you prepared for that?
IMHO getting yourself and others (especially if you are there with family) to a safer place should be the first thing you do.
"I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza
Agreed. Also, consider the fact you off the dude, and he turns out to be a 16 year-old kid with a toy gun that looks quite real. It's still a toy gun. Say you only managed to injure him.
The media whips up a big "local LEO-wannabe with CHP and a ccw guns down teen he *thinks* is robbing a CVS" angle, and you could rot in jail for many years mumbling to your fellow inmates about the laws that allow you to shot felons in action... Even if you are eventually acquitted, think Duke Lacrosse Team.
I am not a LEO or superhero. I am allowed to carry a firearm to protect me. You can argue nuances as most already have, but nothing in that scenario says I'm going to draw and shoot.
2. Security footage is mere vindication, the fact that I make sure the evidence stays put and the cops see the gun or gun look a like the same in the eyes of the law around the country if not the world, combined with my story (He was the aggressor he pointed a gun at XYZ and brandished a weapon within 5 feet of me I was in danger for my life, evidence is here here and here I am happy to make a formal statement and fully cooperate with my lawyer present) Video and statements of any witnesses just compound and verify they are not reliance.
3. Within 5ft as the scenario describes no more than 5 feet, it takes many seconds to run for concealment it's probably 30sec to a full minute to reach true cover, and as most are designed where counter has view of the main exit I'd need to find the back way out in under 2 seconds (as is recognize by Gavin de Becker in analysis of assassination attempts 2sec is the time security agents have to respond), as he's already got the draw and at that proximity can detect and react to movement; a gross movement such as hitting his arm may disrupt the first shot but then it puts in a struggle for a presumed live weapon; so with less than 2 seconds and no backup to secure the weapon because I'm just a CC'er, I've got to rely on a 1.5 draw and shoot because this is about me going home at the end of the day, not how some dateline special will spin things 3 years down the road.
4. I'm not going to jail for how it looks on some news story, real or look alike because I have a brain and can detect the obviously not, then the other person committed a violent felony in a location that did not allow me safe time to retreat, putting my own life in grave danger.
5. Tomorrows media victim is irrelevant, the police and the courts use the law to decide on arrest and guilt, the law backs me up and I get let go after making a statement or possibly before when the rest of the evidence and witness accounts vindicate me, just like the folks with brief news clips legitimate self defense shootings within about 100 miles at least once every other week. Put that 911 call in right away, holster up and now what's going to happen and how to respond to get your side across clearly then lawyer up, you generally don't need to even leave the scene if you've made sure the evidence stays intact and is pointed out and get the call into 911 right away.
6. If I don't have one in the chamber it better be a heavy fullsize gun or have one of those pistol bayonets on it because I'm going to need a good blunt force defensive tool as I lack the ninja skills; but I've got one in the chamber and no thumb safety to worry about so that won't be getting in my way.
Glock Certified Armorer